ERDoc

If it involves anal probing, does it really matter?

MariB, I think I just fell in love with you.

You know a thread has come to an end when we start talking about anal probing.

...that if you give a mouse a cookie...

OK, that is pretty funny right there.

And the cop had no problems with them yelling at you? Sounds like you need to take issue with the cops too. If you have a volley service, you get whoever is willing to show up for the call.

But at what point do your protocols become an intrusion. The 911 call was cancelled in this case so what right does the FD have still coming in to a facility, uninvited? It is also different if you have some random guy down on a sidewalk and someone saying he's a doctor standing over him. This was a medical facility with a physician present. I think we could at least call this poor judgement on the part of the FD. At least the EMS crew had enough sense to call medical control. PS-I'm not trying to argue with you Bieber (even though it may sound that way), I just wonder where we have to draw the line.

Mike, you can nipick over the term I used but it is irrelevant, which is why I added the comment about state law. I'm glad it is your scene, but it is the doctor's patient so you have no right touching him. You seem to forget who is the higher medical authority. I'm also glad that you have so much experience in law/criminal justice, it will come in handy when you need to arrest the dead guy. Is it really that difficult to identify what kind of doctor the guy is? "Excuse me doc, but are you an MD/DO?" Pretty simple. You are making this much more difficult than it needs to be. A physician at the scene (the highest medical authority) has pronounced the pt. There is nothing for you to do here, finish your paperwork, clear the scene and be available to help someone that may benefit from your assistance. In the end it does not matter what the paperwork says, a licensed physician has pronounced the pt, it's a done deal. As for the second call saying that the pt was fine, it could be possible that the doctor didn't want the firemonkies coming in an starting CPR on a dead person that has been pronounced(although a situation like that might be rare...oh, wait a minute...)

I agree with the CYA of calling your command doc/medical control but DO NOT start CPR.

Doctors don't work under protocols, they use medical judgement. I would have a huge problem with anyone starting CPR in this case if I had already pronounced the pt. It becomes assault/decimating a corpse/whatever your state law calls it at that point and I sure as hell would push the point with your medical director and/or state medical director. It has nothing to do with ego and is all about dignity for the pt and family.

Yes, actually, the existence of quarks and antimatter can be proven mathematically, which is why we knew to look for them. We then built particle accelerators and created them. I'm not talking about the parts of the bible that contradict other parts of the bible (that is a whole other discussion). I'm talking about the parts that contradict known evidence. I mentioned the story of Noah before. The flood killed all people on the earth except those on the ark. How does that happen when other civilizations around the world existed then and were not wiped out, nor do they have any record of a world wide flood? How did all of those creatures survive on the ark? There are estimated to be 8.7million species in existence today, meaning there were 17.4million organisms on the ark. In order for the rain to cover the earth in 40 days, it would have to rain at a rate of 1 foot per minute. There is not enough water available on the earth for that to happen and if it did there would be so much energy created that the water would boil off. I would think that if a book were divinely written it wouldn't be open to interpretation or transformation.

But Kaisu, you are speaking in hyperbole and making the evidence fit the story. We reach a conclusion and a fixed point of view because we critically evaluate the evidence and make our decisions based on it. We shouldn't be taking our beliefs as rigid and then warping the evidence to fit those beliefs. By doing so, you are being the diamond. chbare, as to the student in the OP, I would answer any questions they have. I would not try to convert them one way or another but I would be open and honest with them in answering their questions. I would let them lead the path the questions take, just as I will when my younger children start to take this path.

Yes, I have. The problem is that the apologists try to make the evidence fit the story and as such they make no sense. You build your story based on the evidence, which is where religion has built themselves into a corner. The bible is supposed to be the word of god and therefore cannot be wrong. The problem is, it is wrong which means it cannot be the word of god, so therefore we must skew the evidence to make it fit our beliefs.

And if it is divinely inspired and true, yet there are multiple interpretations that contradict each other, how do we know what is true? And if it is divinely inspired and true, how do we explain it when the book disagrees with the evidence? EDIT: Sorry for the similar post to Mike's, we were posting at the same time.

So are you saying we shouldn't believe what is written in the bible?

Herein lies the problem. There are others of the Christian faith that would say Genesis dates the world to about 6000 years old. Who is correct and how do we decide?

chbare, I hope I am not going in a direction you did not intend for this thread to go by asking a followup question to yours. Let's put aside the reconciliation of fundamental dogma for a minute. How do people who believe in the bible reconcile the history, as reported in the bible, with available scientific facts (ie the story of Noah and the flood)? Kaisu, do you believe in a young earth?

Not to take this too far off topic so early, but for those that do believe in a god but not the bible, do you believe that the god resembles the one in the bible? Is anyone here polytheistic?

I was never a devout (insert any religion here) but I did believe in god. As junior high and high school rolled around and I took more science classes (especially Bio and Physics) I started to question and soon realized that I no longer believed. Wanting to make a truly informed decision (is that possible in something like this?), I started to read books by noted atheists which made me critically evaluate the bible as a whole and not just the happy parts they teach in Sunday school. Needless to say, it was quite eye opening and, pardon the pun, a revelation.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. A licensed physician has declared the pt dead. Why are the firemonkies doing CPR? I wonder if the previous event had any influence on this. If I was a family member, I would make an issue out of this but then again the public sees the FD as heroes and allow them so leeway.

No no no, I said PROPERLY TRAINED PROFESSIONALS.

Only if you throw the whole box at them.

Yeah Chief, if you push hard enough it is going to hurt but that is why it must be done properly by trained professionals.

There no reason to see yourself as non-legitimate. If you took the class then there is no problem with you picking up where you left off. Only you can answer whether you are ready to pick up from that point or not. If you think you can review the stuff that you did in the past and get yourself up to speed, then go for it. Never worry about what your classmates think, you are not here to make friends you are here to learn medicine.

There is a fine difference between being emancipated and being considered able to make your own medical decisions when you are pregnant. Even a pregnant 17 year old cannot enter into a business contract. I think the laws specifically deal with their medical decision making.