46Young

My prior understanding of the Australian, Canadian, and New Zealand systems was that a degree, which I would assume is at least a two year, was the minimum one needs to have in order to be employed. Throughout the various threads, whenever the subject of the American EMS educational system or educational standards were addressed, reference was often made to the fact that the aforementioned systems all require degrees to be employed, unlike the US. So, how does the Australian system work regarding education and employment?

Damn, I've been in EMS for over 7 1/2 years and I've never heard of this. It's only an hour and a half away from me without traffic. Is it at the same place and roughly the same time every year?

My last post was made in response to an earlier one. In fact, I was responding to the one that you quoted. I dipped down to kiwi's post to make a point. The post in question was quoted within my own post, #13, since I was responding to it. It was plain as day to use your words. Phil said that he makes six figures, and then said that it isn't a pissing match, even though he directly referenced me when posting his salary. I went back and said that my pay scale was on par with degreed professionals locally, and also that I can look forward to much growth from there, as I'm near the bottom of the pay scale. Phil then said that it his salary was without a degree, and that he stated that earlier. This was the post you quoted back to me. I then responded to that post, and finally you saw fit to show me up by posting what you said, not realizing the chronology of the conversation. XD

Good stuff. Real good stuff. I think you rep wil be around 8526 give or take after this, and deservedly so.

The EMS world has many poorly run, undesireable agencies. EMS also has a number of good ones, along with a handful of stellar ones. I'm asking that everyone weigh in with agencies that they have knowledge of. What is the compensation, working conditions, schedule, retirement, pay progression, medical benefits, type of service? Is it third service muni, third service private, hosp based, IFT, combo 911/IFT, strictly 911? Union or no union? We'll leave fire based services out of the discussion if you like. I won't mention mine, I've done that enough already. Number of units in the fleet, population #, rural/suburban, urban? Medic/medic, or medic/EMT? Protocols progressive or is it mother may I? What about policies and SOP's? Are schedules changed on a regular basis, or are you left alone? What about leave? Can you use what they give you, or do they make it so difficult that you waste days every year due to denials? Holidays, OT availability and mandatory OT holdover policies? How is discipline given? Is it progressive step discipline, or is it subjective, as in everyone's treated according to favoritism? Are raises guaranteed and step based, or do they only give raises to who they like? Is management on the up and up or are they out to get you? Is there opportunity for promotion? Is it based on a list score from a written test and maybe an oral interview? Or is that given by favoritism as well? Anything I forgot to cover? My intention is that members on the forum can use this thread to find some hidden gems. http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=13483

I looked over each of your posts on this thread several times, and nowhere did I see where you said that you're earning six figures without a degree. I thought that a two year degree was required to work EMS in Australia. I surely hope you don't expect me to believe that your base salary is in the six figures as a medical first responder, in USD as you say. If that were true, paramedics around your way would be making as much as an attending ER physician in the states, which can be around 200k I believe. As per kiwimedic's post, you're trying to tell me that you're making 250% the salary of a medic in NZ (100k is 250% of 40k, the median salary for a medic there). If this is inaccurate, please feel free to explain. I hear you. This could be used as an eye opener for someone working for what they thought was good money. This could be used as a guide for where to work, where the money, desireable working conditions, and bennies are. Matter of fact, I'll start a thread in regards. I started one on EMTlife called "Quality EMS Agencies". I listed all my previous employers and went into great detail about each. Check it out. Thank you, sir.

Did you even read my post? I gave that link and said that you could find a bunch of BS and half truths. It's in the second sentence matter of fact. My point was that opponents of fire based EMS could pick that apart, respond to it, and put forth it's own media to compete. That's one of many things that need to happen. Nowhere did I say it was valid evidence of the effectiveness of FBEMS. You picked it apart. I'm saying that others should do the same. Not on an internet forum where it doesn't matter, but rather in real life. Take the time to reread my previous post. You got so aroused when you read the link, picking it apart, that you missed the whole point of my post.

Crotchity, remember what I said about not being an amateur? Look at this link: http://www.fireserviceems.com/index.php Now, I'm being sincere, this is one of the many things EMS needs to do to rally against FD takeovers. I'm sure you can find plenty of BS and half-truths in the videos and downloads. EMS ought to be putting out it's own media to oppose the fire service's views. Any EMS response to fire takeovers has been after the fact, typically right before the takeover, when the writing is already on the wall. This is calculated by the FD, think about it. There's little time to organize an effective resistance effort. Even if you work for a good third service agency, history has shown that it can be taken over at any time, typically with little advance warning. Be more proactive in advocating seperate EMS. I've heard much about the shortcomings of various depts and of takeovers under false pretenses. Why isn't anyone composing media and organizing campaigns to educate the public about these issues? Just calling your legislators or writing letters isn't going to do jack. I keep preaching of organization (with or without unions if you want, although unions will get a more effective response IMO) to enable you to reach your goals. Many on these forums form very well thought out arguments against fire based EMS. But they are doing nothing sitting on an anonymous internet forum. why is no one taking these things public, through the media and such? Contact your local reporters and TV stations if you have a problem dept you know of. Document witnessed incidents and bring it to them. Let the reporters do an expose or something. Start there. I want to hear less internet bashing of FBEMS and more articles of EMS going to the media in opposition to FBEMS, where it actually counts.

In all sincerity, I'm happy to see EMS being compensated well for a change. It's rare, very rare, to see anyone in EMS making six figures as a base. I think the median medic income is around 39 or 40k. Why, just for example, we'll use my last employer, Charleston County EMS. As a medic, they start you as a crew member. That's at around 38k. After six months, you bump to around 45k/yr. You top out at 68k, but that takes ten years. I think a station LT, which is a senoir crew chief, makes maybe 5k more. Now, there's a posting for asst director. Here's the link, it should be good for the moment: https://jobsweb.charlestoncounty.org/hronline/public/vacancylisting.aspx They only pay 60-74 grand for someone with a bachelors and 10 years managerial experience. I personally find this sad and pathetic. This is basically second in line under the director. I'm making that now. Charleston County has no excuse to compensate so poorly, since they're the richest county in the state. Their EMS also pays the highest. I think it's a great thing to make a six figure base w/o OT where you are. It's sad here. At least you guys have your stuff together. Check my above post. Supervisors with bachelors degrees can't even break six figures.That's why I think that EMS degrees past the AAS don't give much clinical content. If they did, it would be all the easier to branch off to another medical field where they're treated better, compensated better, and have more opportunity for advancement. As such, I don't see EMS growing and advancing into the roles of critical care and other areas that are currently handled by RN's. If one has most of the knowledge and/or classes required by nurses and maybe PA's, then they'll eventually migrate in that direction. Unless things change regarding working conditions, salary, and such, I don't see the clinical education for the paramedic passing the level of the EMS AAS here. I could see the AAS becoming the minimum standard for entry, but not much where clinical knowledge is concerned.

Two things. First, my base + incentives either meets or exceeds compensation in other fields that require 4-6 year degrees, and typically experience as well. But don't take my word for it, see for yourself: https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/jobs/listing/listing.asp Second, I'm haven't even got two years on the job yet. My compensation is about as low as it gets here. Two promotions up to LT, which I can get in another four years, will leave me in the 90's as a base, and easily over six figures with ALS incentives. Plenty of step increases as well. My EMS Capt is a Capt I, which is only one promotion over LT, earns exactly twice my base. You need to hit all eleven steps to get that, but after six to seven years on I'll be eligible for that promotion. And considering that medics start at an 18/3, that's only another eight years to top out in step increases from when you start. So, my current compensation is already competitive with those with a four to six year education, and I can look forward to more than doubling that during my career here. Adjusted for future inflation of course. Today's dollars, not tomorrow's. Nice try, wisenheimer. You're attempting to make a dubious comparison is compensation between two countries half a world apart with fluctuating exchange rates, and a whole different tax system, I'm sure. I've clearly compared apples with apples so to speak by using other job postings in the same county for comparison.

I never said that I don't devote myself to my work. I have enjoyed EMS work from the start; I was doing it for five years before I went fire, and would still be doing so without fire if single role agencies gave me what I have here. I always had an interest in fire as well, but I didn't get hired by the FDNY. There are quite a few FF's in NY who do nursing and EMS on the side. I could have backdoored my way in via the EMS promo exam, but I didn't want to do that. I also decided early on that I didn't want to remain in NY for the long term. So, I learned of the firemedic job type from those in my EMS dept that went down south before me. It sounded too good to be true. So I signed up. I could do fire and EMS at the same time. If I didn't like suppression, then I would stay on the EMS side and go down that career track. But it happens that I like fire very much. The job is a good fit. I strive to do well in both disciplines. I love going to work. It's a blast. Waking up on a work morning is a happy event for me. It would be easy for you to believe that I'm only in it for the money, but it just isn't true. I decided what I wanted to do with my life, then I found the best place in which to do it from an economic standpoint. I refused to believe the pessimists that say "you can't get rich doing EMS". Maybe I won't be rich, but my family and I are sure to be quite comfortable. I was vocal about working conditions and better pay for EMS at one time. I saw it was a losing proposition and went to the fire side. I have a family to take care of. I would naturally go with the safe, secure job, loaded with great pay and benefits. I don't understand why that's wrong. Currently, I'm completing my EMS AAS, as are all incumbents in the dept that wish to go ALS. That's more than most places are doing. Pulse and a patch for ALS upgrades for single role and fire based depts alike. I work with medic students and ALS interns all the time at my stations. EMS LT's are the official mentors for the interns and students, though. That's at least another four years away for me. I'd like to be an EMS instructor at the fire rescue academy, but some spots need to open up. I've spread the word at my IFT side job that you can use your P-card to get a degree, as it gives you 37 credits. Not much more I can do. I go to the occasional union meeting, but I'm too busy to lobby, campaign and such. I'm raising a family that I like to be home for, I'm taking classes, and working OT to afford the best home we can when we buy next year. These things take priority.

I'm not commenting on this thread just because he's fire. I brought up the IAFF because that would be the union most likely to be working with Colleton County. If it was someone from a private hospital in NYC, I would ask if they were affiliated with 1199 or something. The problem is that he got fired for posting the video on a social networking site, to be viewed among friends. It wasn't like he posted it to youtube. Maybe he could have used a week or a month of LWOP to prove a point, but certainly not his job. This world is too PC and soft, and everybody gets their feelings hurt by everything nowadays. The video wasn't really a big deal, and they're trying to play the race card, too. Makes me want to vomit whenever someone makes things racial when they're not, like the FDNY 6019 test, for example. It's not like he did what those FDNY medics did, documenting their pt contacts on video and all. The county's disciplinary policy 15.1B got me hot because it's absolutely outrageous that you can give two different punishments to two different people for the same offense. This and many other policies that serve only management's interests are written into policy unopposed. I haven't seen these problems in my union experiences, or those of acquaintances. A dept ought to have progressive step discipline for each and every employee. We have four steps. Verbal warning, written warning, metting with the BC and maybe three days of LWOP, and finally a meeting with the fire chief, where you're typically let go. Transgressions that skip step 1 and go right to 2,3, and 4 are clearly written into dept SOP's. The important thing is that the process is equal for everyone. Same for promotions. Merit matters. You score high and interview well, you're placed higher on the list. No promoting your drinking buddy or your wife's cousin. What I don't like about unions is that they protect lazy people. We can deal with them if it means the union is there to protect us against unfair work issues. We have our ways of dealing with the skells at the station level, and we can also use progressive discipline to our advantage. Unions in non strike places like gov't are a good thing. In the private sector not so much, but they can also have their place in certain circumstances.

I'm thinking that the cronyism, favoritism, lack of professional (not union) organization and shady discipline/punitive actions prevalent in EMS aren't problems in other medical fields. You do need more pensions and less 401k's though.

Well, I just read the facebook user comments regarding the video, via the link from the story. It was as I suspected. Some residents told of how the county nails some to the cross for relatively minor issues, and others get just a slap on the wrist for more serious wrongdoing. It's all favoritism down there. I noticed the same at CCEMS, and it's one of many reasons why I left. People say unions are evil, ruin the country and all, but look what happens when they're not around. Things will continue to regress for the employee. It's analagous to the political cartoon they show you in grade school. A ruthless dictator is overthrown by a new movement promising change. The new ruler slowly changes so by the last frame of the cartoon the ruler is now the dictator, identical to the first frame. Get rid of unions altogether and at some point employee working conditions, compensation, benefits, and job security will deteriorate to the point that there will be a new movement for collective bargaining, just like in the olden days. In fact, the IAFF is currently pushing for legislation that will eliminate the whole absurd "right to work" thing, and legalize collective bargaining in all 50 states.

Earnings: $69k base + ALS incentives, 91k in total w/OT Job Title: Firefighter/Paramedic, an entry level position Experience: 3 years as an EMT, 4 1/2 years as a medic, nearly two of those years as a FF/Medic Type: Combined Fire/EMS dual role dept State: VA Avg OT: 56 hour workweek, all straight time per FLSA, average OT 12 hours/wk, more if you want it 25/55 pension w/ three year DROP, 2.8% multiplier, 457 as well, VEBA possible in the near future http://www.americasveba.com/ Median home prices in Northern VA outside of Fairfax, Alexandria, and Arlington are from 200k to 275k for a SFH, 170k to 225k for a 3BR townhome, both in desireable areas with good schools

Thanks for the heads up. The IAFF homepage has no record of a local for the county. There was the local 4179, but I think it's inactive. That's probably why he got fired so easily. No representation, no attorney. http://wcsc.images.w.../discipline.pdf It takes a little time to load, so please be patient. Per the county's disciplinary policy, he could have had a verbal warning, written warning, LWOP, or a demotion/reduction in pay before facing discharge. Pay close attention to 15.1B. They think they're slick in writing this. 15.1B basically says that they can treat each employee on an indivdual basis, and not be held to that precedent when dealing with others for similar issues. This basically authorizes cronyism and favoritism. This is what depts write into their SOP's when there's no union looking out for employee interests. No decent union would ever let crap like that be written into policy. A union will ensure fair and equal treatment for all, which is the exact opposite of 15.1B. Wake up and look into what shady rules and SOP's your dept has. This is one of the major reasons why I'm so pro union. Favoritism and cronyism doesn't fly with me. Strength in Solidarity. Oh, here's the video: http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6096497/

Some things you may want to add are the median home prices, your type of retirement, and how much you were able to put into deferred comp. This last one is quite important. You can live somewhere that has a cheap cost of living, but still not be saving anything towards retirement. Same for an expensive area. You could make 80 grand, and not have enough to contribute. Perhaps a general geographical region (optional) could be included. Example: Memphis, western PA, SoCal, Long Island, and so forth. Also, the number of hours in a workweek. We all work different schedules. A scheduled workweek could be 56 hours based on a 24/48 and it's variants. It could be the standard 40, or as much as 96 or 120 hours. If you made 50 grand base working 40 hours a week, you're doing okay for the most part. If you're making 50 grand base working 80, 90, or 100 hours base, then you're getting ripped off.

So then do it already. This has been going on for longer than I've been alive, and I'll be 34 soon. Get my head out of my ass. Yeah, I guess I should go on a campaign against the IAFF and put myself out of a job. I like being able to afford a home in a desireable area. I like being able to support my family without living paycheck to paycheck. I like being able to take family vacations without stressing over if we can afford it. I like being able to get my car fixed and not even care that it cost me over $500 (today). I like having all this working 10-11 days a month. I haven't found any EMS depts on the east coast that would give me that. I tried Charleston County EMS and was utterly disappointed. I would have been happy with Lee County EMS, but they didn't get to me fast enough. The only other place I'd consider would be Wake County EMS, and their salary range is only 32,600 to 49,900. I'm sure it's a great place to work, and I would suggest it as an option for single role medics that are unhappy at their present employer. That salary range is not generous enough for me, seeing that I'm making 20-30 grand over what my hiring range would have been. I'm doing the same job I was before whe I'm on the ambulance. I've also found that I enjoy the fire side as well. In addition, with the other half of my time that I'm on an engine, we don't have to txp the drunk or toe pain at 0300, and we can clear calls in 15-20 mins and go back to the station. It's nice. I can have my fill of EMS transport, and also get that break when riding the engine. It makes for a long, satisfying career with a much less of a chance to burn out. Pt keeps one fresh. The career advancement/promotional opportunities and ensuing compensation are sick. I wasn't getting that elsewhere, either. You see, I already got my head out of my ass and went to a place where I have great job satisfaction, and a great salary to boot. No place else was offering that. We'll do what needs to be done to protect our interests.

http://www.youtube.com/user/drinkingwithbob www.drinkingwithbob.com

Don't be such an amateur. You need to draft some form letters that everyone can use to mail/email to their local and state politicians. And while you're at it, provide links to these state govt's, and ask others to provide contact info for their local govt's as well. One major consideration is that most politicians' main objective is getting re-elected. How do you think all these entitlement programs stay in effect? That's where the votes are. Numbers game. Anyway, you'll need money to effectively lobby, so you'll need to collect donations. You'll also need to assist in these legislators' PR campaigns for re-election. Photo ops, PSA's, charities with said politicians, billboards with your organization endorsing them for the upcoming election. You'll need organization for this to have any chance of working, of course. By the look of things, you have your work cut out of you. This is the best the profession has to offer at the moment, the NAEMT: http://www.emtcity.c...nefits-jemscom/ Remember this thread? I'm sure that many don't. It received quite the underwhelming response, and nearly half of them were mine. Since many single role providers are outraged, frustrated, and hopping mad at the fire service and the IAFF, I would think that the thread would have at least sparked some sort of discussion, perhaps about how to organize and lobby effectively. Guess not. Most would rather bemoan the actions of the fire service towards EMS rather than take any active role in opposition. Everyone jumping on a fire based EMS thread, giving each other high fives, boosting their rep points to 300 on an anonymous internet forum may be therapeutic for venting purposes, but it changes nothing. Why does a fire bashing thread (right or wrong) get upwards of 30, 40, 50 or more posts and a very (suprisingly) infrequent thread speaking of EMS organization and advocating a better deal for the profession gets a passing glance at best? I've said it time and time again, the EMS profession will remain transient so long as benefits, wages, working conditions, call volume, retirement and such remain undesireable. The idea of raising educational standards is a good one, but requires organization. The majority of employers won't compensate degreed medics more generously when tech grads are still available. Hard to organize when the majority of the workforce gets in, then gets out when the have the opportunity after being used and abused. For every happy, gainfully employed EMT or medic, there are probably five to ten that are miserable, or will soon be after a few years. Unions, strictly EMS unions, are the only short term remedy to blunt the epidemic of attrition in this industry. If you say that unions are evil, that they do nothing, that you would rather keep the dues to yourself, then I don't know what to tell you. Many are so ignorant that they don't understand that unions in right to work states are strictly voluntary, and enrollment isn't mandatory. We get what we want by doing the above things, using a portion of dues to effectively lobby, donate campaign contributions, and assist the politicians that serve our needs by providing positive PR in their election/reelection campaigns. The photo ops where we bring our spouses and young children are particularly effective. Check out this video from a session of the County Board of Supervisors. Our President was responding to the take home car "scandal" by admin, and more importantly, to squash the County Executive's proposal of 89 uniformed RIF's. We were successful. Notice the members of the Local 2068 wearing yellow t-shirts (I mentioned this on another thread when someone joked that the opposing group took red first), and also the tactic of bringing our spouses and young children to the session. We enter at 43 seconds into the video. http://www.myfoxdc.c...n_prompts_audit We saved all 89 jobs, and we'll be able to save the 30 proposed for RIF this year as well. That's what I'm talking about! What politicians care most about is getting re-elected. See my above post. I could never imagine those in the fire service ever choosing to allow things to change in the manner that you describe.

My dept. I wasn't on duty, but I'll find out the details when I return to work. County emails have advised that the FF's are doing well and released from the hosp. No word on the cyclist. Maybe HIPPA issues, where advising on a pt's condition on a county email would get someone jammed up, I don't know. As far as the medevacs, the closest trauma hospital is Fairfax Hospital. I've worked that area, and it would take 20-25 mins unimpeded to reach that hospital, after packaging. It's in the very northwestern corner of the county, and Fairfax Hosp is on the Gallows Rd exit on I-495, which is a couple of exits south of I-66/I-495. We're all dual role, but that was pretty funny.

I don't know if this subject has been discussed before, but we've known about this for over a year now. There has been a trend of people offing themselves in their cars mixing a cocktail that yields hydrogen sulfide. Be wary when gaining entry into a car for the unconscious. When you stick your head in and take a couple of whiffs, you'll be pushing up daisies the same as the pt. Everyone be safe and maintain situational awareness! http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=7290459