WolfmanHarris

My large (400 Paramedics and Managers plus support staff) service is 55% female in the Paramedic ranks and one of four senior managers is female. Information is not collected or available for racial demographics so I cannot provide it, but greater then 50% of my recruit class was female and/or visible minority. A couple were homosexual males. A couple were first generation Canadians. Black Canadians were not represented in this group. More then half had previous university prior to becoming Paramedics or were in the joint UofT/Centennial College PCP/Bsc program. What is the significance of this with regards to discrimination? Actually I think very little as it's a poor sample. Everyone represented within this group had to beat significant odds to reach their position. Hundreds applied for less then fifty spots at each college. Most programs had between 30 and 50% attrition from start to graduation. Nine hundred wrote the written test for hiring. Three hundred moved on to practicals. Interviews and lift testing brought created a combined score that resulted in 27 being hired. Can we take this to mean that minorities and women have moved to the top of this field and that all issues are solved? Of course not. Why? Because by this point they are all adults and the various personal choices, upbringing, socio-economic factors and discrimination have done there damage early in life and what we are seeing is a group that has overcome their challenges to succeed. I've said this before, the cure to the lingering and/or continuing discrimination will not be found in post-secondary education or the workplace. The damage is done long before adulthood and redresses at this point or band-aid solutions that will perpetuate themselves. Where discrimination exists within the workplace, we must stamp it out; we cannot though use the workplace and places of higher education* for social engineering. * Please don't take this to mean that I'm against scholarships for the underprivileged to grant opportunities. Of course I support recognizing and funding merit. I only mean that artificially advancing people beyond their means is not the answer.

I like the German law that's taken the air out of the papparazi. Apparently it is illegal to either take or publish (can't remember which) someone's photo without their permission, even in public.

I was faulting the spotter not the crew. With that big a crowd, I would rely heavily on a good spotter backing me up to provide warning about idiots with cameras so I didn't run any over.

I'll disagree on semantics: standardized tests are objective in that there are right or wrong answers. I am willing to concede that worded using those types of references, that you have a point and that they may not necessarily be neutral. I can't remember whether it was this case or another FD one where the test was reportedly on fire department procedures, policies, etc. If a test is written such that it deals solely with the specific knowledge of a job, it seems this problem no longer exists. I'm not willing to concede that not having a cultural history of education should be considered here, as knowledge of the profession and basic literacy and critical thinking, must necessarily, be considered as a pre-requisite for a leadership position. Now in this case, I'm not arguing that this sort of test should be the only criteria, I just wanted to deal with the testing issue separately. Can't speak to this. Have never dealt with NR. Criteria still needs to be established for scoring these accomplishments do they not? Otherwise it becomes a matter of who cooks their resume and sells themselves best, does it not? How do we judge quantity over quality without this? Is setting criteria for judging accomplishment race neutral? I misunderstood your point on accomplishments before, but I still think performance reviews must necessarily be included for any promotion, regardless of field. If we allow that innate racism exists and that it's impossible for a white supervisor to not have bias with regards to a black employee (not willing to grant that personally, but I will for the sake of this point) is any choice left but to disregard these records? Seems problematic. It appears to me that when the objective score of a test is removed, more problems of subjective evaluation are created then solved. Am I missing something here? No argument here. Management cannot continue to be the place we send medics just because they're burnt out or have destroyed their backs. Or just because they're the senior guy. I'll admit that there's catching up to do, but with the issues listed above and previously discussed, I am not willing to place the blame for this on the feet of Fire or EMS. I also don't believe that any workplace has the responsibility to fix these social ills. Take all steps to ensure equality of opportunity, but not equality of result. Thanks Crotch. I didn't say the responsibility of being the sole arguer for your position was fun, just that you had the unfortunate responsibility of setting the tone. Cheers.

Even though I hated stats. Agreed.

So you would argue that an objective standard for assessing a candidate should be replaced with an subjective standard based on performance. Yet if management is dominated by white officers and if these officers were unable to design a written test that did not discriminate, how then could you expect these people to realistically evaluate the competency of the candidates, if as you say their racism is so innate that it can't be overcome? If interviews and performance evaluations show that a white candidate was superior to the black candidate would that result be acceptable to you? Short of saying that the black candidate must always be hired regardless of relative competence vs. a white candidate, is there a method of evaluation that will satisfy you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but standardized evaluation is one of the main ways in which nepotism is combated. No longer can friends and associates pad performance evaluations, score interviews high and use influence to ensure that their preferred candidate receives a job. I'm at a loss for how you believe a return to a similar evaluation could be better, other then the current form isn't giving you the desired result. Crotch, I'm am attempting as much as possible to understand how your emotional connection to this specific issue affects your thinking on this, but your reasoning whenever race comes up continues to be suspect. You filter everything to fit your preconceived notions and use them to justify a stance that is difficult to support. When approached with reasoned objections, the race card gets played and we cannot discuss with you, as based on skin colour alone we are not fit to. It is getting beyond frustrating as there is no real dialogue going on and the more you refuse to engage with reason, the more you discredit your position. I hope this and other attempts to keep things intelligent has an affect, but I think that instead your own stubbornness will prevent that. We've had this discussion repeatedly from the moment you joined this forum and the frustrating thing is that when race is not at issue you can present yourself as a rational, intelligent debater. There is none of that coming from you in this discussion. Arguing from the position of inferior numbers is daunting, but when you are the lone opposing view sir, you set the tone of the discussion. Consider that in your reply as you are the only one that can turn this discussion around. I implore you to do so. Regards, - Matt

This was posted by the former Chief of Toronto EMS on the Facebook group, "Make Paramedics Essential." I thought it was an excellent explanation of the debate and had to repost it. From Ron Kelusky "I did the comprehensive review of Alberta's health system. One of the challenges was that Cities ran EMS as public safety and Health Authorities ran health care. It is one system from start to finish, from point of illness to injury to point of discharge. You are comparing yourselves to organizations (fire and police) whose only similarities are the siren's they run. The problem with being alligned with dual funders (cities and health care systems) is that when a process is developed that would benefit the patient the City can always cry "why should we pay for half of it when it is health care". Health care is moving to a completely integrated model and is designed to lessen reactive response in favour of proactive and bundled services. Being in public safety lessons your opportunity to sit at the table and be part of an integrated solution. Consider this if there are no fires or crime what happens to policing budgets? In California public safety is no longer the sacred cow. When municipal budgets get tight (as they are now and going to be in the future) services will be paired back. Municipalities are not happy with the increased costs associated with the provision of provincially mandated services such as healthcare. In Columbus OHIO a city known for being one of the fathers of Advanced EMS care recently moved back in time to full BLS. Not because of outcomes but because of cost. In government there are 3 criteria for funding (1) outcome, (2) increased capacity (3) economic efficiency. Public safety as a stand alone provides non of the above. Rise above the lights and siren optics and think of the possibilities of being integrated into health. As the population ages and technology increases the profession needs to be seen to be a partner and not a separate entity."

University stats is what turned me from a joint Hons. Phil/Psych major with a Philosophy with an Emphasis in Ethics major. Stats kicked the crap out of me. Anything beyond a t-test gives me nightmares. However I did learn a lot about being fair to one's data.

I think if we want good representations of Paramedics on tv, it won't be on an "EMS Show." Best bet would be for a character in another show to be a Paramedic and just be represented as a competent professional without any of the cowboy antics or "you don't know what it's like out here on the streets" stand-offs with the powers that be. Wouldn't even need to be a medical show. Or a Scrubs or MASH type show. I enjoyed both of them quite a bit.

Okay. I thought it was odd that they were using V-fib only in their numbers to begin with, but I didn't realize they weren't comparing like to like. Good to know, thanks.

I meant the cooked numbers. But my fault for being to quick on the "quote" button pushing.

I was going to leave this thread alone entirely, but I couldn't resist. Sure, a black man can make millions in entertainment or be the elected leader of one of the largest free country in the world, but be your supervisor at a blue collar job? Come on!

Here here! When my fiance mentioned another Michael Jackson death related tidbit to me today, I didn't even look up from my computer and said; "I don't fucking care." It didn't go so well after that.

Can someone explain or direct me to an explanation on how they cooked their numbers. I have heard this a lot, but have never had it explained.

It is possible, but the EMS hobbyist is a self-perpetuating problem. Pay is low, so people only do it part time while working a better job, but since it's not their primary job the impetus to increase wages doesn't exist. Of course the piss poor wages help keep the better educated providers who can do better from staying in EMS, if they enter it at all, so of course pay stays low to reflect the commitment level and education of the majority of providers. Not everywhere, but lots of places.

I am more and more convinced you're just a well programmed bot.

Nice to see they had someone backing them up when reversing into traffic. Too bad he wasn't doing a great job of it.

I think what is meant is that there are programs that still exist (here at least) for RN's who do not hold a BscN to take an upgrading program to obtain their degrees.

Off the cuff I'd guess Medical Emergency Response Team?

Back in the fall, while I was still a student, my Grandfather suffered an SCA while on a job site. He had been feeling sick and told the general contractor that he was going to his truck. Luckily the contractor followed closely behind and found him collapsed on the ground. Luckily the job site was a retirement home and the RN on duty started CPR right away. Luckily a crew from Simcoe County Paramedic services happened to be clearing from a cath lab stat transfer and were only blocks away on their way back to their region. Luckily an ALS crew from York Region EMS was available and nearby and was also able to attend. And luckily they got a ROSC and were able to transport to Southlake Regional Health Centre, the premiere cardiac centre in the area that also happened to be close by. Six weeks later, after signing a DNR and being told best case would be six month before we could transfer him to a LTC, my Grandfather left the hospital, to return home, neurologically intact and with no obvious deficits. Yesterday, I had a chance to meet the crew from SCPS that was first on scene as part of a "Survivor's Day" put on by my Regional Base Hospital. I got to shake their hands and meet them in a uniform not to different from my own and thank them, for doing their job. There are now two medics and a dispatcher, who I will forever owe coffee and I couldn't be happier for the privilege. Thoughts you guys and gals might appreciate that. - Matt

This goes back to the problem of having an advanced first aid course as an entry level to a medical field. EMT-B makes sense as a course for Firefighters, SAR Tech's, industrial, etc. Same as FF's here take their EMR (~80 hr course). The problem isn't with other things being thrown into the first aid course that take it away from EMS, it's that the EMT-B course is considered sufficient on its own to work in EMS. I'd go on, but all I can smell at the moment is dead horse.

What I mean is that MOH's antiquated and stupud DPCI2 system classifies calls as: Priority 1: Deferrable; essentially never dispatched, but sometimes a return priority for a BS call Priority 2: Scheduled transfer; less and less common in EMS thanks to private IFT companies taking on this burden Priority 3: Prompt; less urgent 911 calls Priority 4: Urgent This is how we are dispatched to a call. Traditionally, Code 4 gets L&S and that's it. However, using L&S during a Code 4 is at the discretion of the Paramedic to the scene. We determine our own priority for return along with CTAS. For example, when consolidating, my service area was rural and quiet. During most shifts traffic was limited and L&S would serve little to no purpose. Therefore we often didn't use them at all for a Code 4. Where I'm working now is far more urban and I have used L&S on a Code 3 where they wouldn't otherwise be used as traffic was so congested that a single light could have easily taken 15 minutes without using L&S to request right of way. That being said, judgment is a double edged sword and being allowed to exercise it means facing the consequences of using it poorly.

That makes sense only so far as SOP is that prescriptive. Here use of L&S is at the discretion of the Paramedics. While traditionally Code 4 calls receive L&S response, this is not required and use or not, at any time relies on the judgment of the crew as to their necessity.

"Celeb" really?! Is the Sham Wow! guy also considered a celebrity? What about the creeppy dancing pedophile with the bus on the Six Flag commercial? I know North America has a cult of celebrity but we're starting to lower the bar quite a bit aren't we.

Nope I did it before you posted. I win.