DwayneEMTP

Happy birthday brother... Dwayne

Holy shit. That is too cool for school. Congrats to the doc and those that had his back. Dwayne

Hey all! Some of us are getting emails asking for money from Kaisu's (CrapMagnet) gmail acct. I lost her number when I switched phones and I think she's out on her deployment to...wherever, so may not know that it's happened for quite a while. If you have her number could you give her a call and let her know she needs to deal with this when she can? Thanks all... Dwayne

I get what you're saying here, and certainly agree, but am not sure how it applies to my post unless you believed me to be saying that those images were 'causing' kids to have sex. I don't believe that at all. But I do believe that it keeps sexuality in the main stream of societal consciousness. For example I had never given a thought to skydiving before it became a popular television topic. Since then I've thought of it a gazillion times. The images certainly didn't force me to go skydiving, but it did create a curiosity and keep that curiosity fresh in my mind. And you're right of course, that kids are going to be physically curious of each other even if raised in a vacuum, it's the curiosity to discover why the world seems to think it's such a big, evil, secretive, deal that I was meaning to point to. I like also your comment about partial information or cutsie names. There is a book called, From chocolate to morphine that was written in the same spirit as this discussion a long time ago. It began with the point of view that people were going to do mind altering drugs. It chose to examine each of the more popular drugs and explain the dangers, as well as the way to do them safely. The country was in an uproar!! But it's published still today and you know what? I grew up in the biker/drug culture and there is a mountain of stuff in there that I didn't know. Even things that I should have been taught in medic school but wasn't. Do we believe because they created this book that many more people began doing drugs? Or were the ones most prone to that lifestyle simply in less danger, and thus, less of a burden to society than they had been before? I'm going with the latter. I think that's what we need, is a "From anal sex to Uriphillia, an around the world guide to safe and entertaining ways to exchange bodily fluids" ('round the world, get it? 'roun....Oh, never mind.) Have a great day Yeti, thanks for your thoughts. Dwayne

I think that it simply illuminates that fact that politics has everything to do with obscure agendas and very little to do with creating a safe, healthy country for us to live in. I think that we should show Deep Throat to kids in about the 5th grade. There's not a girl on the planet that will have sex before she's 30 after watching it. (Ok, not really.) This attitude simply shows a blindness for real life. kids ARE having sex. Regardless what we tell them, they are drinking, getting stoned, exploring their sexuality. It's unavoidable with the constant exposure to sexuality in our popular media. And I personally think that it's a good thing. Sex is real life. It's vital to passionate, loving relationships. It's not evil, we're all doing it, and sometimes in ways we'd just as soon not talk about to others, yet we want to pretend that it's only good when 'we're' doing it, for others it's wrong and dirty for some reason. Perhaps we stop short? Maybe we should, along with teaching the use of contraceptives, teach oral sex techniques? (Heh, I could just hear Republican sphincters slamming shut all across the City.)I'm actually being serious here. Children are hardwired to begin to distance themselves from their parents at puberty. The most logical way to separate is to rebel against adult rules and thinking. Tell your kids that they can't have sex, and they'll use that to distance themselves from you. Tell them that they're not mature enough to have sex and they'll use sex to prove you wrong. As an act sex isn't good or bad. It can be made either by circumstances. Children need to learn how to mitigate those circumstances, to come to understand it as a vital part of life, though one that requires more thought and care than most other things. I loved the line, "Southworth is trying to censor what students learn, usurping the role of parents." I don't really get this. Teaching your children about sensuality, sexuality, and eroticism is the role of parents, both through instruction and example. If you've left that to the schools, yet find that they will no longer be doing your job, then I'm afraid you'll either be forced to step up to the plate, or send your kids out into the world unprepared. And we know the decision that the majority of parents are making by the abhorrent attitude on these subjects many young people are expressing. Too often they're expressing it with unwanted pregnancy, casual sex, sexual disease and sexual crime. Tell kids that they have options. That sex is awesome and amazing but that it comes with responsibilities. Explain those responsibilities, how to approach them responsibly and how to mitigate the possible consequences and most kids are going to listen. They truly aren't the ignorant little beasts that the adult media would lead one to believe. In many, if not most cases they are kind, intelligent, inspired young people that have been left adrift by past generations that have 'cared' for them by censoring necessary information from their upbringing, I vote a pretty much straight Republican ticket. But just watch, it won't be long before Mr. Republican, Christian, church going "Don't teach kids about condoms because it will make them have sex" will have pics of him being spanked on his bare ass by a transvestite wielding a Ken doll floating all over the internet. A byproduct of the "Sex is dirty so let's not talk about it" generation. Great article Matty. I hope it generates the discussion it deserves. Dwayne

Bullshit. You know why you're so challenged at times to come up with unique insight into some of the more intelligent topics? Because you've passed that wisdom on to us. There is not a single contributing person on this board that hasn't been shaped by your teaching. I was such a completely idiotic wannabe when I decided to become a medic. I wanted to 'be' something, and I believed that having a medic cert would do that for me. You convinced me that the cert means less than nothing by itself, but does give you the opportunity to become something different if you choose to. The other night I had a resp arrest turn into a cardiac arrest enroute and decided to keep rolling and work it myself. Before I arrived at the ER my pt was intubated, I/O x 2, chest decompression, two rounds of cardiac meds on board and pulses back as we went through the doors. Doc says, "Wow, that was some seriously aggressive medicine." (Yeah, pulses lasted 24 minutes and then he was dead, but still.) That is not the medic I had planned to be, that is the medic I was taught to be and allowed to become because of the guidance and kindness of those here. I can flap my cyber gums for the rest of my career and I'll not effect a small portion of the people you've effected so far. And I know you're far from finished. How much more can you ask from life than that? I know some, perhaps many, have issues at times with your 'tone.' For me, it's always been a perfect fit, even if it made me bleed for a few minutes. I love you brother. Thanks for all that you've done for me and others here. Ok, enough mushy shit. But I couldn't allow your comments to go unchallenged. It's just what we do, right? :-) Dwayne

Regarding your question, this may be the most important point made in this thread. We're fortunate at our service, which is small, to have a lot of training, eventually everyone works with everyone, and some very competent EMTs. There are a couple though that complain constantly about how arrogant the medics are, how they won't listen, etc. etc. We also have a few others that look at these basics with honest confusion. They can't really understand what they're talking about as they've never had these problems. I even talked to one of the basics a few days back that I like very much and he said, "Why do you suppose everyone is so mean to so and so?" I asked him, "are we mean to you?" He said, "I love all of the medics here!" I said, "We treat him exactly the way we treat you, his perspective is simply different. If I challenge you on a question, I can see your chest puff out and you attack it. The first time I did so with him he complained to management that I was difficult to work with. Same tone, same type of question, same attitude from me, he simply has a different perspective." I think that I like your attitude and perspective a lot. That is why I, and many others, will be forced to attack every attitude, believe, and idea that we think is bad for your emotional or mental health or the caree path that you've chosen. And, if you come to develop even the tiniest bit of respect for me as a person or a medical provider, you will do the same for me. Try and remember, when the shit hits the fan, that it's because we're fans, and not the oposite, that we do so. Great points from one of our newer members. Good to have you here man. Dwayne

I really like working with most of the younger people in our service, though most of them could be considered younger when compared to me. Age is really unimportant to me. I love to watch people learn, like to watch their confidence grow. We have a kid that's a full time fireman working with us as a part time basic. We ran a call to Detox, an intoxicated pt well known to me. He was working fire and asked if he could get the IV. I said sure, "Get me a 14 or 16." I wanted to make him uncomfortable, as he's not had much experience starting IVs. He was, but he jumped in, grabbed a 14 and proceeded to miss his stick. I told him to go again, he did, again with a 14 (I really liked the fact that he didn't default to a smaller catheter when he got nervous) and got his stick. He simply trusted that I knew what I was doing, jumped in and did something that made him nervous, and asked later why I did what I'd done. After the call I explained to him that the Detox crowd isn't popular with our local ER and that most often they will simply be cleared and returned, where often we'll run on them again in the next few hours. Much of their discomfort comes from being dehydrated by the alcohol and that I can run a full bag of fluid through a 14-16 in the time I have them and mitigate some of their suffering plus possibly the need to run them again in the next few hours. (People sometimes believe I use these sizes to punish our frequent fliers, but the opposite is actually true. I want to see that they get treatment, and in this group of pts, that takes a larger IV I believe.) Anyway, my very long winded reply is meant to show that it's spirit that I cherish in a partner, the desire to show up on scene and actually use the tools available when we can, to be smarter tomorrow than we are today. Ask questions, mention my mistakes, debate everything you feel educated enough to disagree with, volunteer to do things that scare you, be pt focused and I'll love you forever, regardless of your age. Dwayne

This is an awesome approach to this student, and as mentioned by Annie, won't take a significant amount of time. In behavioral science it's called 'Proofing.' You teach a behavior until you can predict an 80% success rate or so when repeated and then you put it under pressure to teach it to work in the real world. If they fail regularly at the new level of pressure then you've moved them to fast. This is awesome for creating and then shaping new behaviors. This chick will have a stroke at the thought of being made to stand in front of the class, but if she truly knows the material will find that it's not as bad as she's imagined. She'll also find that making mistakes is not terminal. Sorry man, but if you keep posting ideas like this then I'm just going to continue to screw up your negative rating with positive votes. :-) (I hate the spelling but love the creative, 'I'm responsible for this students education' spirit.) Dwayne

Hey Jase, welcome to the City! Do you have an EMS certification now? What is it? If you want to become a medic you're in the right place! Jump in brother, get involved, post, debate... Dwayne

Hey! You all just quick peeking at my EMF...whatever! I'd just gotten out of the pool! And it was cold!! Just sayin'... Dwayne

The Stand, Stephen King, Horror. An epic novel exploring the aspects of good and evil and end of times. I liked it because it has many levels and shows the complex struggle to be 'good' or 'bad' on the individual, group, macro, and spiritual levels. Can be read as a single dimensional story but much more interesting I believe if the layers are kept in mind throughout. Up Country, Nelson DeMille, fiction. A military investigator is sent back to Vietnam to assassinate a Vietnamese soldier that has supposedly committed some type of crime, I can't remember. What I loved about this book was not only the wit and humor in dire situations that is common with DeMille, but that I could actual smell the vegetation, and see the world that he'd created. I felt as if I'd actually taken a trip by the time I'd completed this novel. If you're looking for fluff, this is a bad choice. Straight From The Gut, Jack Welch, non fiction. Amazing look into the life of a CEO of one of the largest and most powerful companies on earth. Interesting peek into the life of someone that made billion dollar deals as part of his normal work week. Easy read, but no good if you want fluff. Maybe that will get your thread started. Dwayne

I think we often train a lack of confidence into students. The whole, 'You're ok! You did your best!" is SO destructive to the educational process as it simply tells me that you, as my instructor and temporary leader, not only believe that I am too weak to accept criticism, but to dumb to learn from my mistakes. Telling me that I did 'ok', or 'my best' or 'that was fine, you'll do better with experience' makes the instructor feel like a kind person, but it carries no information. If I can't trust you to teach me when I'm scared and defeated then I can't really trust you at all. What I need to feel confident is the knowledge to fix the problems I have today and the trust that my instructor will take me and my education seriously enough to help me do so. Also, I see too many skills taught as a single 'thing.' "Ok, this is how you cspine. Now lets everyone practice." At which point everyone starts to flounder around and bump into each other. (exaggerated, I hope, to make the point.) This is not one skill. Manual cspine should be practiced until they are comfortable with it, and then collaring should be practiced, SEPARATELY, until they are proficient, and then positioning the pt, separately, log rolling, separately, etc, etc. It's called Daisy Chaining behaviors. People fail at most skills because one part of the skill falls apart trashing the whole. Each part of a skill needs to be practiced and mastered separately before attempting to be put together as a whole. That's all I've got for now...Don't treat your timid students as if they're breakable, and daisy chain behaviors and I think you'll see a dramatic difference in their behavior as a whole. Dwayne

As long as you are sure that you're coping, and not simply pretending to cope, then you have nothing to worry about. I have known very few people in this field that would be disturbed by the things you've mentioned, though I'm guessing most of us have had 'moments.' Once ran a call for a woman violently raped. Face pounded, multiple stab wounds, including her vagina and rectum. I left that call shaking with anger, just wanting to beat the shit out of someone simply because of the brutality of the act. Once the adrenalin washed out of my system I was fine, went back to work, and got to run on the guys that did this after they 'resisted arrest.' Made me feel much better. :-) Watch for the signs that you're bullshitting yourself about being ok. Neuralgic hypersensitivity to noises or movements, disturbance of your sleep, a revisiting of the call or images of it in your head uncalled for, changes in your personality. If you feel fine, you almost certainly are fine, though EMS is full of 'do gooders' that will want to try and convince you otherwise. They are a much bigger threat to your emotional well being than nasty calls. Good question man... Dwayne

But it's not about punishment, it's about 'justice.' The death penalty is very controversial here and is a political hot button. The only way that the states that allow it can make it fly is to convince the general populace that it is 'humane.' No suffering. We're not animals you see, because we're going to kill them kindly. An anaphylaxis reaction viewed by those watching would simply give the anti death penalty crowd too much ammunition to fight, that is the concern. Is it a valid argument, assuming he can be shown to have an actual, severe allergy? I think so. You can find the Taliban beheading people all day long on Youtube and most cry in outrage, though the Taliban has found those people to be guilty of some crime. We should, I believe, try and maintain some sense of humanity as a society. I remain anti death penalty, not because I believe it's barbaric, but because I believe it should be disallowed until we can show a zero percent rate of mistaken executions. Until then we're murderers, not proponents of justice. My two cents... Dwayne

I usually hate neutral, but I thought your post friggin rocked LS! +5 Dwayne

I disagree. Web definitions for appreciate recognize with gratitude; be grateful for wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context Understand; know and comprehend the nature or meaning of;Same source as above. I don't understand this paragraph. I'm glad, though I have a feeling this paragraph references the one above, so I don't completely understand it either. I think you make a great point here. Both sides of the argument tend to speak in absolutes and extremes. I can see where this is productive sometimes, it's called 'exaggerating for clarity' or some such thing. I do believe that the argument with less extremes might happen between two people committed to exploring the question, but pretty tough here when the non extreme situations are near infinite. Unfortunately you make the same mistake that spenac makes with that sentence. You've chosen to take it as an insult instead of the clear description it was meant to be. I do believe that using physical force instead of the positive techniques which are proved to be superior is ignorant, (uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning) and lazy (Unwilling to do work or make an effort; Requiring little or no effort) both of which I believe to be perfectly accurate representations of my opinion of the issues we're discussing. Of course I have to bow to your experience here. Other than my brush with the military in Afg, and watching the video series "The Making of A Marine' I have no experience to compare, so my opinions on the military school came from a pretty shallow pool. I hope you didn't interpret my post to mean disrespect to you or your school. It actually was intended to be the opposite. I do believe that there should be a 'buck stops here' point, the problem is that if it exists it is usually not severe enough to be definitive, and there are normally a whole bunch of 'the buck is almost stopping here, not really, but I'm going to make you a little bit miserable hoping I don't have to go to the mat." Know what I mean? One can be productive, the other is very destructive to trust and behavior. Because you don't understand how it works doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Reinforcement schedules work, 100% of the time in biologically sound individuals, but like punishment requires education and practice to perfect. Both types of management will require a reworking of our current systems, and if we accept that as truth, then why would we choose to devolve to a system known to be weak and riddled with unforeseen consequences instead of attempting to move forward toward scientifically proven systems? I agree, but of course again, there will be exceptions, but I believe this to be the rule. I see where you're going, but you logic seems to be saying that they go off into the ditch because we didn't 'toughen em' up' as kids, make them harder. I would argue that most of the bad things that happen happen because kids are too tough but not smart enough. we do agree that it is societies fault, only I believe that it's theirs from the beginning, not just when things go bad. Society needs to start preventing problems instead of putting all of it's energy into punishing them..then we'll have something to brag about. (Had to break this down into two posts) Fair assumption, but incorrect. :-) We've given them consequences from beatings to prison up to and including death? How is that working out? The mistake we make is believing that the murderer was created in a vacuum. Should we give him/her a pass? No, we couldn't even if we felt we should. Where we commit the epic fail is in saying, "Whew, at least that bad person is gone!" He wasn't born bad, he was shaped to be bad. We should be ashamed of that and do everything in our power to prevent it from happening even one more time. Violence against kids has been proved to create such behavior, yet no one in this conversation has shown a single piece of evidence that says it helps prevent it. Right? Awesome! Again, man, please present evidence that this has any truth in fact. See! We can agree on this! The things you list above are not violent. They teach work ethic and accountability, not that problems are solved by using violence against those that are weaker than you are! I get that! I don't think anyone here is opposed to the intelligent application of punishment, it's the application of violence, then followed by the wide eyed shock that our kids decide to use violence that I believe confuses many of us. I think I get what you're getting at. Is it possible that we agree more than it might first appear? It is my most sincere wish for you that you would choose to take that sentence back. You've taken your intelligent conversation and pushed right back to the ignorant dark ages with those words, I don't believe that you mean them. Challenges build character. Intentional pain builds fear, resentment, anger, and in many cases retaliation. We agree here completely. It's just that one of us wants to build it using proved techniques that improve people as kind, productive human beings and the other wants to fly by the seat of his pants using tradition and urban myth and hope for the best. But that's why we have these discussions, right? To try and understand and become better? Thanks for you thoughts brother. I look forward to them. Dwayne Yeah, it didn't like the length of my post as one piece, so I broke it into two posts, and the City combined it again as one and it doesn't like it again. Fuck it, I'm leaving it as it is....

I try and treat you with respect spenac, but like this, too often you're putting forth bullshit. The, "For every expert you have I can find another one." is a cop out and beneath you. You can't, and you damned well know it. If you don't want to participate, fine. But don't be a chicken and try and put forth a non argument as an actual argument. Not a single person was fooled by your nonsense. Dwayne

<br><br>Holy crap! Perhaps the best explanation that I've ever heard of such beliefs. I like it a lot. Gonna try an find a way to call bullshit on it, but until then, I like it!<br><br>Is this perhaps an example of what you mentioned above? <font face="Tahoma"><a href=" class="bbc_url" title="External link" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.c...h?v=G_Qwp2GdB1M</a></font><br><font face="Tahoma, arial, sans-serif"><br></font><br><font face="Tahoma, arial, sans-serif">Thanks for your thoughts girl...</font><br><font face="Tahoma, arial, sans-serif"><br></font><br><font face="Tahoma, arial, sans-serif">Dwayne<br></font><br><br> Anybody else having issues with the editor doing this when you post? I find that I can hit the preview button 3-4 times and it seems to resolve, so I'm not sure what's going on...

I agree that I need to understand it, not appreciate it, and what I understand is that it's failed. It's been proved to be a failure for almost 100 years, yet we continue to do things the same way. How about instead of holding a child responsible for the schools failure we create an educational system that doesn't make children so scared, bored, angry and frustrated that they need to exhibit these behaviors in the first place? How about if we hold the 'grown ups' responsible for the education of children instead of the children? Doesn't that seem to be a more logical, realistic approach to educating? A lazy, ignorant approach to problem solving. Please see my reply to spenac. Then from a logical, educated point of view you fail. This is not a personal attack brother, it's simply a statement based on a review of the overwhelming data opposed to your point of view. I'm not in complete disagreement here, only the subject of the punishment is at issue. Why are you choosing to punish a child for reacting to the environment that they are forced by law to be subjected to? I believe when a child skips school, throws a tantrum, attacks a teacher that the teacher, as well as the school administration should do as you've mentioned above. You don't like that statement much do you? Nor do any of the adults that are subjected to such critical review, as it makes them responsible for their behavior instead of allowing a society approved way of deflecting their failures onto our children. Until we, as those with the physical/intellectual power, take responsibility, as a society, for our failures in raising and educating our children, nothing is going to change. See, now you're no longer comparing apples to apples. In the military environment there is an entire process built around the punishment process. The positives and negatives are considered, self esteem is a high priority and scientific processes are in place to evaluate and mitigate the results from the rewards and punishments supplied by the powers that be. No such process is in place in the public school system. Again, outside of a machine meant to create warriors, this system is still well proved to be the weak sister of a motivational, reward bases system, but it's unfair to compare an educated, well considered system of rewards and punishments to that of the public school system of, "They should be punished because they didn't do what I said!" Could you please list the books by Spock that you've actually read? I'm more than willing to bet the list will equal zero. Is there any chance that people can stop referencing authors and data that they have no more exposure to than what they've gleened from an Oprah commercial? Thanks. Dwayne

I don't believe my post was seriously negative, though I do get exhausted by the ignorant opinions of those that are happy to exert the energy to punish, but have none at at all for study. I made an attempt to show your opinion as ignorant, and believe that I have done so, to a fair extent. You're response of "Oh no it isn't!" fails. This is a forum for debate, not a 5th grade playground. Where is your evidence that there ever were, "Good ol' days?" Where is your evidence that beating by a teacher, and then the principal, and then the parents works? Where is your defense, other than your pouty statement, that your opinion isn't ignorant? 'Ignorant' isn't patently an insult. We do what be believe is best, when we know better, we do better. Your belief in the Good Ol' Days is ignorant as there is no proof, that I'm aware of, that such days ever existed outside of popular media. Your belief that we can use violence to create kind, intelligent, productive human beings has been proved unreliable so many times that it hardly needs to be sourced here. Here is partly why your thinking is broken. Punishment reinforces the punisher, leading to more punishment. Punishment NEVER comes without unforeseen negative consequences, never. It appears to work because it makes children sit quietly in fear and pay attention to the punisher, which again reinforces the punishers desire to punish further. Below are a few intelligent, educated sources on the subject to get you started should you want to actually debate this topic instead of complain that your archaic ideals aren't accepted 'just because you say so.' "What is done to children, they will do to society." - Dr. Karl Menninger "Train children not by compulsion but as if they were playing." - Plato "Children ought to be led to honorable practices by means of encouragement and reasoning, and most certainly not by blows and ill treatment." - Plutarch "Punitive measures whether administered by police, teachers, spouses or parents have well known standard effects: (1) escape--education has its own name for that: truancy, (2) counterattack--vandalism on schools and attacks on teachers, (3) apathy--a sullen do-nothing withdrawal. The more violent the punishment, the more serious the by-products." - B.F. Skinner, PhD Punishers love to reference Dr. Spock because they, as I, believe that he was a limelight seeking shithead in many ways. But what about the dozens, perhaps hundreds of non-Spock scientists that have come to the educated conclusion that beating children is not a good thing? Why do you simply choose to ignore them? Not that I actually believe that you've made the effort to read Spock before referencing him in your posts. You claim to be an advocate of science base knowledge, so how do you support your opinion on this subject? Most educated people will concur, I believe, that the authors/researchers I've quoted above should be held as educated, cultured, inspired thinkers. Not the the 'feel good ninnies' that you seem to hate. I've shown you the respect of addressing your complaint thoroughly I believe, not only explaining my thinking but taking the time to give you several strong paths that are easily followed simply by Googling, (no actual paper books need be involved), that support my argument against corporal punishment in children. All I ask is that you show me the respect of doing the same in regards to 'the good ol' days' as well as the positive aspects of beating children. You want to complain about my disrespect towards you. Fair enough. I've attempted to mitigate that. Now let's see if you put your money where your mouth is and do likewise for me, or show yourself to be a hypocrite. I regret that I can't give JP's posts positives in multiples of 5s, though I doubt that you've agreed with a single thing he's said. Thanks for your thoughts. Dwayne Note: My apologies for the crappy formating. Through the cut and pastes it got out of control, and as it's the middle of the night I've simply run out of patience for trying to sort it all out. Hopefully it remains readable.

Yeah, let's go back to the good ol' days. When was that again spenac? 1900? You can't mean that, as women had little rights, gangs more or less ruled the cities, blacks were still routinely beaten, killed and imprisoned without cause. The 20's? 30's? 40's? Certainly no gang issues, unwanted pregnancies, violence in the street, alcohol problems then, right? Yeah, Google it... 60's? 70's? If I remember correctly, anti government protests were the order of the day. Free love, drugs, anti war protests, sit ins. Are these the kids you are suggesting were 'beaten' into being good little rule followers? I get so friggin' tired of the pro beating crowd that come to these conversations having put in as much effort as it takes to watch a few years of Father Knows Best and Leave it to Beaver. Happy Days wasn't real!! Fonzie was a made up TV character! Take a psych class. Make some effort to become educated in behavioral issues. Read a history book. Then you'll see just how ignorant you look when you want to 'beat' your way back to the good ol' days. For the knuckle draggers beating looks good, it's easy, requires no brains or education, which is why it will remain popular with some. But you know what? The rest of the world has moved on. Blacks are equal, some of the most powerful people on the planet are women, it's no longer OK to punch a 'queer' because God told you to, and we no longer terrorize our children because we're too stupid to educate them properly. Try and keep up, huh? Dwayne

Uh, yeah, did that years ago...Just sayin'... I'm not a believer, but am also old enough to have discovered that many, if not most, of my most strongly held beliefs have proved to be bull pucky. I have a hard time believing in those things that that lack empirical evidence, but also believe that there is much that we're unable to prove in a scientific manner. I worship the ground Babs walks on, I adore her, and believe I love her. As of yet I'm unaware of any scientifically verifiable data that proves and quantifies 'love', yet I still believe in it. I think most paranormal experience is wishful thinking and the belief that "if I can't explain it then it must unexplainable, therefore mystic in some way." My personal experience has shown my paranormal experience to be simply my individual ignorance, not God sent, but I still am grateful that someone with an opposing, and possibly more enlightened intelligent view took the time, and had the courage to post. Dwayne

Heh...Gotta admit, that was a pretty good catch...

I guess I don't see your point. Are you suggesting that she died on purpose? And if so, then it's a tragedy that she didn't get the help she needed. And if not, then perhaps your myopic view of the situation is missing some facts. She could have been mentally altered, physically challenged, near deaf. Each of these things means that she deserves to be dead? What if someone had seen all of the commotion and fainted? They are then too stupid to live? I would be very worried for my job if I backed over an bicycle on scene, much less a human being. As much as you like to make out that anyone that does something that you believe is 'beneath' the level of what should be considered worthy human behavior should be beaten or killed, you're still full of shit man, as the logic in your quoted post shows. Dwayne