DwayneEMTP

I don't think CM was referring to your post. I think she was showing frustration at someone posting a negative point to the OPs post without explaining it as well as showing her displeasure at someone giving negative points to an opinion that they don't share, as opposed to an ignorant or purposely shoddy attempt at posting, while being too lazy to back up that feeling in intelligent conversation. Both of which I whole heartedly agree with. Be safe brother... Dwayne Edited to add text in italics for clarity.

To understand blocks in gross terms, that is classic! Not a lot of help where it's most needed though, at the cellular and ECG level, but for what it is, I liked it a lot. I could see it as a great, first morning of ECG class, introduction... Dwayne

I'm thinking that if they were dispatched to the car, which I'm led to believe based on the statement that fire may also be brought in, then they belong in the suit, right? They had a duty to act on the pts behalf at that point I believe. Either way, I'm not being turned around by PD without an assessment, or supervisor involvement anyway. Why would PD stay on the side of the road for an hour? Not criticizing as I don't know if this would be normal for the area or not. If fire and/or the EMS crew allowed the cop to deliver their assessment to them then I hope they all leave court without their balls/ovaries, respectively. Dwayne

Yeah, I go to Google, type in my query and the relevant pages on the City will come up. Only the relevant pages. My betters tell me that the City search function works great, but I have the same issue as you. I most often have trouble finding any relationship to my query in the returned links. CJA, welcome to the City! If you could self teach yourself EMS I don't believe that you'd want to, at least if you want to become a competent provider as opposed to simply trying to win a patch. There is simply too much of prehospital medicine that isn't intuitive. Also, EMS is very much a team sport at the EMT-B level, and even more so at the Paramedic level, so you might as well train in a team environment from the start. There are short courses, online courses, courses that train simply to pass the National Registry, so your questions regarding the best path are certainly good ones. I got both my basic and medic at a community college and feel that I recieved a pretty good education. Most important, and God bless our fire fighter brothers and sisters, you do not want to get any part of your education that is fire based, or centered around educating fire. The fire services simply do not take EMS education,(in most cases, there are certainly some glaring, stellar exceptions) seriously. And you need to be aware that, certainly at the basic level, you will be following your dream only as you will be providing very little support for your household. If you're good with that, awesome, but I don't want you to be caught unaware. Good luck brother, let us know if we can help further. Dwayne

No toes stepped on from my point of view, but you have once again shown your ignorance here. In thread after thread of scenarios you've shown to have a weak grasp of medicine and a very poor logic tree as it applies to EMS. Yet under your name, once again, you state that you're here to teach. Each of your posts shows how much you have to learn, how much you fail to "get" yet you continue to hold yourself out as a teacher instead of a student. This opinion of yours is, unfortunately the one we've come to expect from those fire based. "Don't judge me on what I do today, how well I've performed my job, what effort I've made to bring additional tools to the table, instead judge me on how long I've been willing to 'pay dues', to be treated second rate." It's unfortunate brother, but I'm guessing most will see the truth in it. I do believe the one thing that the vast majority can agree on here is that whatever the new system the OP ends up with, it should not be fire based. Once again you've proved that to be a healthy sentiment. Dwayne

There are a lot of variables, but in the US you'd be better off to go with a medic/medic system as opposed to a nurse/nurse truck as prehospital EMS is a very different animal than in-hospital EMS. The scope of practice and skill sets are much more finite and well defined, as well as the autonomous work environment. Am I, as a paramedic, the better choice to work an accident scene or significant acute medical in the field than an ER trained nurse? In my experience, yes, very much so. Is that because I'm smarter than the ER trained nurse? Not in any significant way. What I do bring as a significant advantage is a finite toolbox that I have practiced over and over bringing an efficiency of movement and confidence with not only pt management but the management of the scene and the resources available there. Now of course if you take a nurse that has been trained in these skills as well, then my whole point becomes moot, as we see often with flight nurses in the US. There is nothing magical about a medic cert that endows one with the skills mentioned above, only that here, that certification focuses on those skills throughout the education process as well as puts us in an environment to practice them endlessly. If your system is looking at simply staffing ambulances with hospital trained nurses over traditionally trained paramedics, then I'd say that that is not a good thing. In Kandahar I worked with a driver, a KIWI doc and an Aussie nurse. The doc was useless as he couldn't seem to get the point that he had hands of his own and that on an ambulance he was expected to use them. He also could either work a pt on scene, or load and run to the hospital, but seemed unable to come to understand that there are ways to do both at the same time. (THIS NZ doc, please don't extrapolate this to ALL NZ docs, or even docs in general, he just happens to be my only experience in this arena.) The Aussie nurse was awesome, but coming from Australia she already had a healthy respect for prehospital medicine and was simply a sponge when exposed to those concepts. But despite the fact that she was wicked smart and competent, she originally had almost none of the tools necessary to work prehospital, by her own admission I might add. The flip side of course is that given those tools and additional education specific to prehospital EMS her intelligence, commitment and common sense would have made many, many of the medics I've been exposed to look like a bunch of monkeys humping a like number of footballs. She was an inferior provider to me because she'd been dropped in my environment. Had I instead been put into hers I would have, and often did, feel like a complete poser, medically speaking. Two different worlds. Prehospital EMS is a pretty specific skill/education set. If those that will man ambulances are not trained/educated in it then I believe that system will suffer because of it. Dwayne

It's not that expensive to apply. He may just want to do so and see what happens. I doubt it will be an issue though, as long as it's not an issue for your employer. Dwayne

I work the night shift and we trade off our truck with the same day shift every rotation so I think it's probably different than it might be at a larger service. We all get together when the day shift comes on on Sunday morn and go through everything and tag it. After that I'm confident that they feel the same responsibility that I do to make sure that they don't end up on a hinky call without something necessary. It's not sanctions that cause me to check the truck, it's the thought of having the other crew coming to me and saying, "We trusted you to look out for us by doing a simple job well but we got our assess handed to us on that MCI. What happened?" Yeah, I can accept that I may lose pts to an error, but have nightmares thinking that my team mates can't trust me to do a job a child could manage without significant issues. I seem to be weird in today's EMS in that other than the suction and monitor, I don't really care what's in the cabinets. I work out of my bag always. Most pts I try and improve before moving if they're hinky, and if not I remove them to the truck and still work out of my bag. It seems most like to work out of the 'office', but I learned the other way and really like having my finite number of critical things at my fingertips. I just restock out of the cabinets...Yeah, probably stupid, but that's just how my little practice works. I absolutely agree that tagging is not an aswer, but it does create some accountability. I would rather see those that need significant oversight moved down the road and replaced with the many that don't. But that's not a popular management strategy these days... Dwayne

We check everything in our rigs the beginning of each month. Drugs, fire extinguishers, flashlights, everything. Also, each time a cabinet is opened when it's restocked each product in the cabinet is checked for damage or expiration and then the cabinet is tagged with the date of the next thing to expire on one side and the employees number that checked it on the other. And management does random spot checks a few times per month. (They pull the tag, check the items and make sure that the tag actually matches the next item to expire.) I've heard that there are pretty severe sanctions for failing at this, but we don't have the type of people here that are likely, from a professional point of view to do so, nor to risk sanctions on such a silly thing, so I've never heard of it being done. It seems to work really well. Dwayne

And I'm going to say the same of you, I'll explain below. Then, and I mean this to be honest, not offensive, your class failed. The older generation owes so much more to the attitude of the younger generation today than they are willing to admit. The science of teaching techniques and strategies has evolved incredibly over the last century yet these 'new' tools lay rusting in the shed of ego and tradition. So many want to teach, yet very few actually want to be judged on their teaching. The older generation is firmly entrenched in THEIR sense of entitlement to continue to do things the way they've always been done despite the fact that they have been, and continue to be, proved to unproductive. They retain their ability to puff out their chests at their academic prowess by blaming children for being poor students. If you've put yourself in the role of teacher, then you are responsible for creating a curriculum and an environment where children learn. Not where they 'should' learn, but where they do. If you've failed in your task, they should not be held fully responsible, though of course that is an ego shattering concept for those that like to brag of 'teaching.' If you've created a class that is so disengaging that students wish to leave it, you fail. If you choose to blame genetics, youth, video games, or television for the fact that you are unable to teach, then you fail again. Can you see that your sense of entitlement to call failure success, to call stagnation virtue, to deflect blame instead of embracing it as a catalyst for change, is no less pathologic than the sense of entitlement that you blame on the kids? If you didn't before, yet have the aptitude and critical thinking skills necessary to be influencing young minds, then you should certainly be able to see it now I think. These issues won't get better until we put ourselves back into the equation. Until we quit saying, "Good God, 'they' can't/won't/don't want to learn!" And instead begin by saying, "Holy shit..what have I been thinking??" It's not my intention to bust your chops brother. I'm not trying to be insulting, but clear. Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions. I look forward to your thoughts. Dwayne

That was it to a certain point, but more so was judging the value of complaining of a problem that you have no desire to fix. How do I know there is no real desire to fix it? Because to fix it means to define it and use what resources are available to understand the motivations involved so as to shape a resolution. In this case we all have the resources, which is our own current or previous desire to cheat, or steal, or lie, which the previous posters claim not to possess. So I do know for a fact that those that are upset don't want to solve the problem badly enough to overcome their distaste for introspection where the subject of dishonesty is concerned. If I want to stop people from beating their kids, which those that have been here a few minutes know is one of my hot buttons, the best, first place to start is to look at myself and ask... "Have I ever beaten my child?", "No." "Have I ever wanted to beat Dylan?", "Oh hell yeah!", "Why did I want to beat him?", "Because his behavior was making me batshit and I wanted it to stop. I couldn't think of any other way to do so.", "Why didn't I beat him?", "Because there is a truckload of scientific data showing that I can't control the outcome of punishment. That there is never punishment without unwanted side effects and I am afraid of those side effects. Plus, I think it's unkind." "Do you believe that you are morally superior to those that beat their children?" "No, I believe that my education in behaviorism has given me a different perspective as well as a different skill set. My desires are no more pure than theirs, I've simply, luckily, followed a different educational path." "So is it possible that education is at least part of an answer to getting others to stop beating their children?" "Yes, I think so." See? The problem is that we started this thread pretending that no one had any concept of why someone might possibly cheat. And it's impossible to fix the issue from there. As long as we continue to bath the issue in showers of our make believe moral superiority then we're just gonna keep getting cheaters dandruff. So yeah, I do think it's relative, but I don't believe that that is the weakness here. It's the refusal to acknowledge that this is not a kid problem, it's a problem with the motivations attached to cheating and the lack of reinforcers attached to not cheating that is the issue. Did you notice that Dust mentioned that he would cheat on an English Lit exam, but not a medical one? And did you also notice that he didn't mention, or even imply that those decisions were morally based? Medicine simply has a higher reinforcement value to him than Eng Lit. He didn't apologize for for Eng Lit, nor expound on his moral purity regarding medicine, because those are not the issues. They simply cloud the issues and make people feel good when talked about. Plus, it pisses me off when it's implied that this is a generational issue. Father Knows Best and Leave It To Beaver were no more accurate representations of "The good ol' days" than Rescue Me is of fire and EMS. We have to step away from the fantasy, we have to excise the bullshit, and then we can truly begin to resolve problems with morals and ethics. Until then all of the self righteous blather is simply more of the exact same problem, right? Dishonesty? Dwayne

One of my favorite lines ever, which I believe is much more insightful than the comedian intended....(Can't remember his name or I'd give him credit.) "Sure, nowadays everyone says that masturbation is normal, masturbation is healthy, but then you do it in front of them...." (there was no need for him to finish the sentence as the mental image was devastating.) (Heh, this thread has certainly taken an unpredictable turn, hasn't it?) Dwayne

Is the rating on this post a joke or something that I'm just not getting? I don't see the issue with this post, or with the last few that I've read from joesph, yet each one has been marked with a negative. I can't remember if his posts have been terrible or if he's done something here to make enemies, but if so, how is he supposed to improve if someone is just going to follow him around kicking him in the balls regardless of his post quality? Whoever put the negative on this post, can you raise your hand and explain why you chose to do so? I think this post is spot on..I'm curious what I'm missing. And I think he's right. I think most people do take this as a joke, as I always have, and as the creators of the test do. It's always the same test, with the same questions, in the same order with no attempt whatsoever to create any type intelligent, interactive way of learning it, nor a secure way to be tested for it. Why do you all truly expect others to take the test more seriously than they've been taught to? The creators don't take it seriously or they'd make some effort to create a relevant test, your employers don't take it seriously or they'd do more than say, "Get this done and turn in your card." And I'm really the only one here that's ever thought about cheating?? Really?? No one here has ever told a lie?? Which of course is just another type of cheating. I can't think of a time when I've wanted to cheat to get something I didn't need, but there were a million times going through school that I was confused, exhausted, or just simply wanted to see a good grade above my name that I'd thought about it. I didn't, but not because I'm somehow morally superior to todays younger generation, but because I grew up in a time when cheating was very, very difficult and the consequences for doing so were so amazingly humiliating that I can't imagine putting myself in the position to face them today. We like to believe that we are morally superior to those that might cheat, but c'mon folks, these kids are growing up in a world that many of us that are getting a little older help to create. They are operating on the morals and ethics that they've been taught by us and those that came before. They are applying those morals and ethics in a world that allows it. They are what they were created to be, and they remain that way because we, as a society, allow it. We are all frustrated by people that cheat, and the society that allows them to continue to do so, but to say that we just can't imagine any reason to cheat, any reason to lie, well, that's just bullshit. This problem needs to be addressed, but to address it it needs to be indentified and understood from a realistic, honest point of view, and that takes some introspection that just won't be found in a thread full of "I don't get it? Can you imagine why someone would actually lie? Hmmmm, no, from my morally pure perspective I just can't make the leap to such an completely alien concept...." Hell, right now I've got Safari spell checking as I type instead of taking the time to proof read and use a dictionary. I've chosen the easy way to accomplish something that I find unworthy of my time at this moment, but I'm sure no one else would stoop to doing such a thing.... Great argument, but the problem needs honest attention with a serious dose of introspection...Trying to douche it away with self righteous indignation just isn't going to get it done..

Holy crap.... If we all agree on this what the hell am I going to do with my spare time until the next argument?? (I mean, now that public masturbation has been disallowed.) Dwayne

Yeah man, and this is my weakness I'm afraid. I tend to look at this from my limited experience as I've not worked in any of those regressive systems. Some of the medics I work with are really strong, and I'm starting to get stronger, so I rarely think in terms of mother may I. I do think, and it pains me greatly to say this, that I'm starting to see your point... Are you saying then that an increase in education will eliminate the need for med con? I think you could be right, but I wonder how many of the medics that need it would really need it had they not cut their teeth being forced to use it? I'm not so sure that in the systems addressed in this thread that it's so much an issue of intelligence and education as it is the shaping of dependence behavior? I was blessed to cut my teeth in Afg where autonomy was relatively assured so it's natural that I like to do my own thing. But I wonder, if I took my same life experience, education yet popped my cherry in California, would I have the same attitude? Not sure. I think where I went off into the ditch, again, is missing the word "need." I wasn't really making the distinction between you calling your folks for advice and me calling mine. I think it's finally sinking into my thick head that what you're talking about is being forced to conference for common issues, and yeah, I don't think I'd do well in a system like that. I'm not sure why the issue remains though that we call docs and you don't? Do you have shortage of docs in Aussie land? I mean, when I watched Crocodile Dundee there were witch doctors running around all over the place... Damn it...if you'd told me that we're not supposed to masturbate publicly sooner you could have saved me a fortune in fines and counciling.. Man, I think I get it finally. You're right I think. I don't need medical control. I do need oversight, in case I suddenly decide to do lazy, or cowboy medicine, but I don't need hand holding and the growth and entry level education of those that need their hands held is certainly being retarded by this practice. My opinion now, subject to change given new information or points of view, is that med con in the US is pathologic to the progression of intelligent, professional prehospital medicine. You win...and I thank you. Dwayne

Good for you Nate! My advice? Stay away from the books for a while. Decompress, get laid, have a few adult beverages, and then when you feel like you are relaxed and strong, go forth and do good, intelligent, ethical, moral medicine. And then come and mentor those that come behind you. Easy, huh? Nice job brother... Dwayne

I think that that is why I sometimes get a little rabid about trying to protect the integrity of the City. I show up, pay my few dollars, and sit back while folks like that paint me with their experience. They started it, made it grow, gave it a spirit and a soul, now all we have to do is protect it. Wanna hear something really dumb? I had a dream one night a long time ago that I'd won the paramedic of the year award. As they're explaining all of these amazing calls I ran I kept interrupting saying, "But no, that wasn't me, Rob (Dustdevil) taught me to think like that. No, that wasn't me either, see because ak (Yeti) showed me how to do that. Well, no, I didn't really figure out that problem because so and so told me to watch out for that if this should ever happen!" It's truly is how I see EMS, just a big team, sharing and challenging each other's ideas hoping that we create this mombo group intelligence that's there when we need it. And we get access to that for $10? Are you kidding me? I used to read his case studies and think, "Oh shit. I would have changed that! I would die if anyone knew I'd made that mistake!" But of course I do make them, I just don't have his courage and commitment to showing them to the world so that they are allowed to learn from them. I'm trying though...And yeah, I'd trust him with one of my own. If you've not read his blog, http://babymedic.blo...&max-results=11 you should. It's just like his posts, and if you really care about doing good medicine, you'll find plenty of yourself there as well I think. I can't find that reference. Can you be more specific? Dwayne

Shoot, you guys never ruin my day with your opinions. I cherish them. And Dust is very kind. Without his advice throughout my medic education I would be less than, or at least no better than those that make me crazy now. There are very few opinions that I hold that have not been shaped, or at least colored by his council. When I became a member here he was THE critical voice of EMTCity, he and akflightmedic. He's unwell now, and unable to contribute as much as he used to, but I still regularly go to him for advice, personal and professional. We're going to lose him here in the not too distant future and EMS in general will be much worse for it. My fault here brother. After going through a gazillion pages of posts I'm afraid that I kind of rolled many of the contrary opinions up together in my head. It was laziness and I apologize for it. Without going back through all of the posts I truly can't tell you which of poster gave which opinion. It wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth. Agreed. Our medical director looks at us very closely if he sees us calling in with simple questions or 'cover your ass' calls. I love to have it, though as mentioned above have almost never used it. I simply took exception with those that, to my way of reading, seemed to be implying that it should no longer exist because if you need it you shouldn't be practicing anyway. And also I guess because if you look back through Fiznat's case study postings you'll see that he is one of the incredibly rare members here that is fearless when it comes to allowing people to judge him. He is one of my favorite posters here and was taking a beating because he couldn't overcome the "Why would you ever need it?" query, without getting a reply of, "Then perhaps you shouldn't be a medic" when he revealed things he may choose to seek help on. It pissed me off that he was being beat to death with bullshit, but was unwilling to use bullshit to defend himself. Again, it wasn't my intention to point a finger at you, or to misrepresent your thoughts, I simply didn't bother to reference by comments properly. Thanks for you reply man... Dwayne

About 8 weeks ago or so I had an 82 y/o man that had gotten confused and taken several days worth of medications together. When I got to him he was unresponsive, had pinpoint pupils, brady at around 40, was exhibiting mild seizure like activity, incontinent to urine, diaphoretic, nose running all over. In his med list was beta blockers, benzos, narcs, tricyclids, and he was believed to have washed them down with half a bottle of dish soap. You can probably guess that he had dementia meds as well. My original thought was fluids, narcan, atropine, intubation, but was afraid that nuking some of his narcotics might increase the seizure activity, which I could live with at this point, but didn't want to make worse thus forcing me to treat it with more benzos. I could have just protected his airway and ran with him the 25mins to the hospital but I knew the odds of him coming off of a vent once on were poor. Intubation was the easy answer, but possibly not the best for my patient. He has such a rainbow of meds onboard, in unknown doses, that I wasn't really sure what to do (pharmacologically) but knew that if I had the tools, but not the knowledge, to treat him without intubation that I wanted to do so. Now, it sounds like what our friends on the wrong side of the planet have been saying in this thread is, "You're a medic. Make the hard decisions! Narcan, Atropine, intubation and write it up later! Do your job!" Why would I choose to do so when I had access to superior information? Now, of course what I got from med control was narcan, atropine, fluids and intubation so that they could sort it all our when they had labs, but that's not really the point. Had I chosen not to call for med control, I wouldn't have gotten jammed up. I could have kept this pt alive without advice, but perhaps would not give him his best chance at recovery. Why am I somehow less of a provider because I called a doctor instead of calling a coworker? And no, this had nothing to do with covering my ass. How is this situation different in the field than in the hospital? (Someone made a comment akin to it being advantageous to call an advanced care medic (something like that) instead of a doc because docs don't work prehospital.) If calling your advanced care medics for advice is just as good as calling a doctor, then why do you have doctors? Why not simply staff your hospitals with ACPs? I get a little tired of the whole, "Though we have access to online advice, I've never used it because I'm a medic and know how to do my job..blah, blah." I think that most of us that choose to put ourselves out there for judgment on this forum have some idea how to do out jobs. Berating others for using all of the tools at their disposal seems ignorant to me. And to say that you have nothing to gain by getting a second opinion on an ECG, because you know your job, tells me that you've never been around two or three cardiologist discussing the same strip at the same time.. :-) I had a kid with a severely dislocated knee. I had good pulses, it's just that his knee originally made an L instead of an I. I intended to control his pain with morphine but then wasn't really sure what they were going to use to sedate him when I got him to the hospital, though I was confident that they'd want to relocate the knee right away. I called in to ask what they'd prefer for pain management. I wasn't asking permission to treat, only what would be most conducive to getting this kids knee back in place in the shortest possible time. They told me what they preferred, I delivered it, and life went on. I grabbed a ruler and checked immediately but didn't notice that my penis had shrunk to any noticeable degree for me having talked to someone else about my patient. Those were two of the three times that I've contacted medical control. The third because I intended to disregard orders given to me by a transferring doctor that I believed were proving to be detrimental to my pt. Yea, on that call I just wanted to cover my ass... Interesting thread I think. But I have to say to the non Americans that when you make the argument that, "You need med control because you're systems sucks so bad you'll likely screw the pooch without it. Someday you'll be as smart as we are and actually know how to treat patients at which point you won't need such silly things any more." that you come off as arrogant and unbelievable. I believe your training is likely Superior to most of ours, but I don't for a second believe that it's superior to your doctors. And your doctors, believe it or not, ask for advice all the time. Thanks for your thoughts all... Dwayne

boeingb13 Group: EMT City Sponsor Posts: 99 Joined: 27-August 06 Gender:Male Location:Jacksonville Florida Interests:surfing,music Reputation: -7Neutral Sent Today, 07:00 PM That was cute, my info I believe is in my profile, if not i'll post it. Whats the last name, since were not hiding. The tone of your messages is beginning to get really, really unfunny. All future messages will be posted publicly and forwarded to Admin. Any with a threatening tone will be forwarded to law enforcement. You need to think very carefully before you start playing the, "Fuck with me and I'll hunt you down" game shithead. You think I'm froggy online? Give me some reason to think that you're actually stupid enough to show up on my family's doorstep... Fair warning. Dwayne

I did a digital intubation a few weeks ago. I didn't need to do it in this manner but it was an 80 year old arrest, no teeth, dentures out before bed, no family present. I was was confident that I was going to push some ALS drugs and leave her so I thought I'd try it in case I ever really needed it. It was successful but not nearly as easy as I'd expected. Not sure if I'll ever need it or not, and am confident that I'll likely not do it on a pt with teeth, but figured it couldn't hurt to practice... Dwayne

God's speed to him and strength and peace to those that loved him.... Dwayne

I think that this is where people get confused about American healthcare. This child would not be denied life saving surgery. Would his parents be responsible afterwards for the amount of money that wasn't covered by their insurance? They would, as they should be. This child would have it's surgery and the parents would pay for it for a long time, as is their responsibility for creating a child. Dylan costs me a significant amount of money secondary to his autism as well as because Barbara and I have chosen for her to stay home and care for him, as well as me of course, which keeps her from earning an extra income. We have very few shiny things, have never owned a home or a new car, we live very simply because of the decisions we've made as well as the blessing of having Dylan in our lives. We decided to have a child, our child is autistic, why should my neighbors be responsible for those costs? If Dylan needs life altering healthcare, or any type of necessary care whatsoever, he will receive it and we will add the expense to the financial burden we carry now, and I won't complain for a moment. It will take a while to pay, but I won't go to jail, they won't kidnap my boy, life will go on. Will it go on without the discomfort that sometimes comes with the freedom of being responsible for our own decisions? Of course not, and it shouldn't. You really only have to look as far as Waco Texas to see why it's difficult for many of us to give over any more power to our government than absolutely necessary. Some of that, at least for people like me is just bullshit stubbornness, but much of it is also a true desire to remain in charge of our own destiny. As a society we've often done what we felt was kind, we gave classes of people basic human needs, food, housing, and healthcare when they couldn't care for themselves and we now have huge American populations that are no longer capable of caring for themselves. We've got kids in our inner cities, and elsewhere of course, that come from 5 generations of adults that have never had to earn an income. Learning to have the government care for us, many of us believe, is to forget to know how to care for ourselves. As well, anything that the government gives, it can also take away or hold hostage to force it's other desires. I would personally rather go hungry than trade you your sandwich for a stick that you may later choose to beat me with. Would I rather keep my stick if it meant that Dylan had to starve instead. No, then I'd be forced by my emotions to take my beating. But that is not a decision that I'm forced to make here. If it was as you fear, that we have a country full of sick and dying poor children then I can't imagine the argument that I'd make to you on this subject, but that just simply isn't the case outside of fictional books and popular television. I am grateful for your thoughts and opinions. As always you've shown not only to have an intelligent opinion but a refreshing curiosity to explore the subject instead of simply express a previously held opinion... You're ok for a non American... :-) Thanks for your thoughts girl. As always they give me pause and make me dig... Dwayne

On this we are on the same page. If this has been verified then I certainly have no defense, nor sympathy to offer. Dwayne

And had the crew been injured, or one had an MI while walking the four blocks? Now, having lived urban and rural I would be curious to know exactly how far each block was, as it's not such a specific distance as some might believe. But had one of the crew become incapacitated while walking this response the thread would be full of, "What the hell! They have a duty to protect themselves and their partner! What were these idiots thinking when they left their truck??" This was a lose, lose, but having been re-dispatched I'm missing where it became reasonable to fire or reprimand the medics. Having said that...Welcome to the City brother. 6 posts at this point and already you've proven to be a gift....Thanks for participating. Dwayne