Eydawn

Then why do we as EMS providers have 72 hour psychiatric holds that we place patients in *all* the time? Why do we bother to transport intentional overdoses? Just sayin'... Wendy CO EMT-B

Have ya ever met a college adjunct teacher or professor? Have ya? Seriously... lots of people do Teach for America for the experience and then decide not to continue teaching. And yes, I have heard teachers and professors bitch about their pay level compared to the classes they are teaching, even though they have a lower level degree. It's not just limited to EMS, although it is worse in EMS. Wendy CO EMT-B

So... because someone decides they want to do Teach for America for 5 years and then go into investment banking as a long term goal, are they a schmuck for not committing to furthering the teaching profession for their entire life? I just accepted a contingent hire for 15.20/hr as a Basic... and I don't plan to work in prehospital EMS for my entire life. Does that make me a poser? Granted, I have long term plans to help reform EMS education (you don't think this arguing and writing practice is just diversionary amusement, do you?) Rookie, if you had lurked a while you would see that EMS pay is a hot topic, and the discrepancy between fire based and non fire based EMS wages is a sore spot with many. That's why people asked you to give us a number when you said you made "good money"... my brother thinks he's making good money making minimum wage because he can go to Starbucks and doesn't have to pay rent. I felt the same way early on in college where all I had to make was book money and spending money. "Good money" is a relative term, which is what engendered the inquiries. Wendy CO EMT-B

Is that what you got from my posts? Good lord, man. I thought I was a lot clearer about what I was saying. I'm not putting myself in her shoes and obviously she must have been really far gone to drink HCl in front of the kiddos... HOWEVER, what I am advocating is not condoning the act of suicide and just saying it's ok because the person was in a lot of pain. No, it *WASN'T* ok, and while she obviously suffered from severe mental illness, she went and drank the stuff, so YES, she is responsible for that action. From what I can read in here, Dust is advocating that every person has the right to pursue pleasure and avoid pain, even if avoiding the pain means offing yourself. Is that what you agree with? I do feel sorry for her, for the darkness she must have been in, and I feel even sorrier for the poor children. Pulling oneself up by the bootstraps and persevering in the face of hardship are not one and the same, at least not the way I've always thought about it. If every one of us gave up when we encountered something that we perceived to be "too hard," however we defined it, the world as we know it would not exist. Perseverance in the face of adversity is a GOOD thing. And while one's ability to do so in terms of challenging one's own depression depends on the causes and severity, it is possible for people with severe depression to NOT commit suicide, even though they may have had the ideations or intent. Hell, I even know people who've tried, failed, and then never tried again because they realized what they were doing. Also, do not assume that I do not understand the lack of lucidity and clouded thinking that goes along with depression, and that I'm just blithely applying normal thought processes and assuming they are the same for the woman we've been discussing. That would be a bad assumption. Wendy CO EMT-B

Before, I thought Mike was overreacting a tad... but now I agree after this quote. You're not necessarily in a full blown eating disorder, and it is good to be MINDFUL of what you eat and how much you exercise... but this indicates a level past mindfulness that is pushing towards obsession. Obsession leads to eating disorders, which leads to a lot of physical and psychological problems. Take care of yourself! Let us know how things work out. Wendy CO EMT-B

Politics threads are not tabu. However, they often get locked quickly due to over-zealousness... kind of like religion threads. But by all means, go ahead, enjoy it while it lasts... Wendy CO EMT-B

One human action not directly taken to avoid pain or seek pleasure: Refusing to give up and die, pressing on in extremely painful conditions in order to survive. Survival does not equal pleasure. And that's just the first thing that came to mind. Wendy CO EMT-B

The cop out of failure... the insistence that one is right without providing evidence to back up their position. Bravo, you're already stooping to worn out, tired devices. That's something you usually burn newbies to a crisp for... but I guess it's ok if you're the high and mighty DustDEVIL! Whattsamatter, Dust? I scare ya or something? You used to actually refute my points, instead of running from them like a sissy. I think the pain meds have gotten to you . Wendy CO EMT-B

Take it in a heartbeat (as long as it's a share type deal, not a robbery). Leave: a slightly worn Gideon's King James with a handmade bookmark in it.

Is the action one you are very unfamiliar with and does it have complexities that are beyond your medical understanding? Will it save the patient but debilitate them? How far outside of your scope is the activity? Is there a way you can get a physician on-line to authorize your actions and take the responsibility for it? To step outside of your protocols safely, you must have some sort of education or understanding with which to back up your actions in front of all those nasty lawyers... if you don't have that base, and you know your actions would be indefensible, or defensible yet so far outside your scope that any defense wouldn't matter, you might wish to reconsider stepping over that line. Any of us might be faced with a situation in which the only way to give the patient a chance at survival is exceeding protocols. I think the word *survival* is key, and the odds of that survival should certainly play into one's decision. Is it worth it to risk losing your license or certification and all of the time and effort you have put into becoming the medical provider that you are? If the odds are somewhere around 10% that the action will result in definite survival, I don't think it would be an acceptable risk. While you have a duty to advocate for your patient and do the best possible thing you can for them, you also have a duty to yourself and those who may be depending on you. Balancing those duties can be difficult, especially in areas where providers are in short supply and you find yourself sacrificing family time in order to provide coverage... sound familiar to anyone? So... if you sacrifice your license to save a patient, and remove yourself from your primary field of income, how is that any better for your family? However, there may be instances in which you *know* the action is the right thing to do, regardless of consequences. In that case, God be with you and make sure you can defend it. Kind of reminds me of the paramedics who worked a pregnant code and performed an emergency C-section with online medical direction, but had their licenses revoked or suspended... the kid's alive, and I don't think either of those fellows would regret the decision they made. I would tend to err on the side of human life... but then again, I am also a wicked public speaker and manage to convey myself honestly (at least, that's what my coach used to tell me) so I feel like I would be moderately comfortable defending actions I took in the best interest of the patient. If it's just something glitzy that doesn't impact survival, then you're an idiot. If it is something that will truly make the difference... the judgment and responsibility are yours. Think hard when you act. Side note: Does it bother anyone else that the word "judgment" is spelled without that extra "e" from "judge"? I type "judgement" all the time and my computer yells at me. /side note Wendy CO EMT-B

Your comment about "psychology much" seems to refer to my original post, as does the statement that I was making a broad reference to suicide in general. Then, you picked up on the only direct comment I made about the original case in the post where I refuted your absolutely ridiculously simple distillation of human motivation and ignored the rest. Like I said... way to dodge the discussion. Want a cookie for that? Wendy CO EMT-B

Mom drank hydrochloric acid in front of her children. They tried to help her and also got burns. The 10 year old child told EMS that he was planning to commit suicide when he got home. And thanks for only zeroing in on the single beginning sentence of my post and ignoring the rest of the content. Appreciate that. Obviously, if you had read the rest of the post, you would have picked up on the fact that I was in fact commenting on suicide in general, using that particular case as an example. Way to dodge the discussion. *claps* Wendy CO EMT-B

There is a difference between pursuing an escape from pain and horrifically ending your life in front of your own children. There is a difference between avoiding noxious stimuli by changing your circumstances or surroundings and doing so by ending your life- leaving your friends and relatives to deal with the grief and the aftermath. Who here has not learned from the pain we all experience? At the basest level of existence, all animals seek pleasure and shun pain. What makes us *human* is the capacity to learn from both experiences and understand the aims of temporary pain for greater goal (medical school, or training for an athletic competition) or to overcome physical or mental pain as being less than the total sum of our existence. The problem with the idea of condoning suicide is that it is directly contrary to one of the primary imperatives we hold at the instinctual level: SURVIVE. This is why suicidal ideations are considered to be a severe sign of mental disorder, rather than a simple response elicited by the desire to escape or avoid pain. Humans seek more than pleasure. Humans do more than avoid pain. While diminutives of both of these may be portions of the more complex human actions and emotions, to distill motivation down to simply being "avoid pain, seek pleasure" seems ridiculous. It's like saying that a heart attack is chest pain and scary. We all know that there are a myriad of factors and causes behind different cardiac conditions, and that it's not as simple as just giving nitro and morphine to make the scary pain go away. Do you really believe that humans are only motivated by these two principles? If so... how much in life you might miss! I wouldn't trade the myriad of painful experiences I've had for any excess of pleasure- they have made me who I am and given me a base for empathy that I might not have otherwise had. Wendy CO EMT-B

I seriously hope that this blog author and the medical professionals involved reported to the across-the-pond version of child and human services that this 10 year old had expressed suicidal intent. I also hope that *all* of the children received psychological care. How can people lament that others commit suicide, and then be in favor of euthanasia or legalized assisted suicide? What are we teaching society? That it's ok to attempt to escape pain no matter what, that an end to pain or an escape from misery is the highest goal? Sorry. I might be muddling threads a bit... but I think that we really need to readdress the whole idea of the psychology of suicide and think hard about it. Wendy CO EMT-B

Here's the updated version of this story... they're gonna be go-fers and family support. They will be riding with the ambulances and be there to offer support for both patients and EMTs. They will not be expected to supply medical care, but will help secure scenes and fetch gear.... This will be interesting to see how it works out. Update: Ambulance Chaplains Wendy CO EMT-B

It is natural and normal for someone to look at a gorgeous, blossoming 14 year old woman and feel a sexual attraction. I guess you could say the same for looking at teenage males, although that is less publicized. HOWEVER- if that is the primary or ONLY group that fascinates or arouses you, there is a problem. As is going after teenagers for sex if you're twice their age... Isn't it accepted that normal adult individuals feel the greatest attraction to other adults? That would seem to be what our ethical codes and standards accept... Wendy CO EMT-B

The optimal safeguard would be to have a panel of child psychology and sexuality specialists from a variety of cultures and backgrounds decide what is the general age at which children can handle sexual interactions with adults. This is a different matter entirely than sexual interaction between individuals of the same level of cognitive development... hence why many states have the 3 years or over 18 type laws, in which the age difference cannot exceed 3 years between over 18 and under 18 partners. Unfortunately, as with so many other state laws, it has been a hodgepodge decision making process with several failings. We need some sort of law to provide legal recourse and protection for those too young to defend themselves... however, I don't necessarily agree with all the laws that currently exist. I do, however, believe that it is wrong for a 50 year old man to engage in sexual intercourse with a 13 year old... due to the different levels of maturity and development. If you think that sort of relationship is ok, I think you need to have your head examined... at the minimum. Wendy CO EMT-B

What then, is what you claim to be "God's age of competence" for sexual consent? And in stating that society needs to establish rules about sexual conduct with children, I did not imply that God had failed to do so. As a matter of fact, I think the real failure we see so often is the failure to use the brains that He gave us for logical thought. To say that any of the statements I have thus made are such an implication is a non-sequitir and a failure to communicate. Wendy CO EMT-B

Excuse me? Find me three posts where I tried to imply that following the Bible (God's word as I'm thinking you're inferring) is the only regulation that we should adhere to, and that historical or Biblical situations in which marriage occurred at 14 years of age or younger should exemplify our current moral code. Hell, find me even one where I implied or explicitly stated that one should live by God's code alone... I'm not sure where you come off with this angle, but if it makes you feel better about ogling 14 year old children and pretending that they are psychologically capable of having a mature sexual relationship, go for it... In one's personal life, I am for adhering to Biblical tenets or similar spiritual guidance. However, as rich a spiritual resource as the Bible provides, it doesn't provide the sort of complexity that allows adequate governance of our modern era (unless you are a wicked cool theological scholar who can derive subtleties from the text that many of us miss). But back to the actual concept that started this banter... at what age you do feel individuals (regardless of state or country law) are capable of engaging in mature sexual relationships (read- non exploitative) with individuals who are decades older than themselves? Why don't we leave the Bible out of it (unless that's your sole basis for establishing your criteria) so as not to muck up the argument with pointless theological asides? Wendy CO EMT-B

Those of immature physical and mental development. Legal restrictions aside, one can argue that the immaturity associated with under-17ish mentality can be construed as being still a "child." Someone can be physically attractive due to having had a growth spurt... but who in here is *really* attracted to the inanity of teenage female thinking? Since it's mostly guys responding here... be honest. Physical sexual attraction to 14 year olds is not abnormal or evil... but mentally engaging with that attraction and pursuing it is. Many people pursue sexual relationships with children because children are easier to manipulate and control. You don't have to share the power... just keep the kid from telling. Wendy CO EMT-B

If your sexual psychology is such that you feel primary attraction to juveniles (male or female) then you have issues. Nuff said. Wendy CO EMT-B

My basis is not religious, although my own moral beliefs indubitably influence my position. There is indeed a dignity to life, no matter how taxed or stretched or contaminated that life may be. That is my position in a nutshell. Do I think it is wrong to bar someone from ending their life intentionally? Is there a difference between allowing someone to stop life-saving drugs and allowing them to take a lethal dose of something? I'm not sure. But where I have serious problems with end of life ethics is where *someone else* makes the decision for the person in question as far as intentional death goes. There's a difference between not resuscitating the 98 year old for the 5th time and intentionally administering lethal doses of medication to them. While you as an individual would say that "I would not choose to live and I would choose to actively end my life if put into such and such condition" I do not feel that you can make that judgment for another person. And if you say there is no dignity, no lesson to be learned, no value to experience gained from end stage cancer or Alzheimer's or AIDS, I ask you- have you ever spent time with someone in that stage? I mean not just intermittent, brief instances of association... but really spent time with them? People who are put into extraordinary circumstances like that often gain knowledge or self-insight. Doesn't happen all the time... but just saying. This is an issue that will almost always remain divided. I do not feel that euthanasia is beneficial. I feel that it places life in lower regard than pain. Once you establish that it is acceptable to end life based on certain standards of pain or suffering, you open the way for people to re-negotiate those standards (which they have in Europe in the Netherlands) and you teach society as a whole that it is preferable to end pain, rather than to confront it and bear with it as long as life is granted to you. Did anyone notice how suicide rates have jumped in the Netherlands since the official institution of euthanasia policies? Just curious... Wendy CO EMT-B

That's why you make sure the switch is off. Potatoes work fine, you just need a little finesse... of course, welder's gloves are a much better option, given that they're puncture resistant and often help shield against getting shocked... If I were going to choose a trivial matter to move over, it'd have to be shower pressure... Wendy CO EMT-B

And yet there are still ethical concerns about its appropriate use all across Europe, in which it has been legalized in many countries. BBC Article Profiling Different Countries and Euthanasia Not to mention different reports published in The Lancet, a British medical journal, regarding the euthanisation of infants. Euthanasia is a touchy issue, and is not as cut and dry as many would like to believe. While I empathize with the agony of watching someone die, or watching someone live in a state where they have very little control over their actions and communication, I would argue that life itself has a dignity. Having worked with profoundly retarded individuals and watched several people degenerate through Alzheimer's, I would argue that life itself is sacred and that even those living in such conditions can have some quality of life. While it may be painful for us as medical providers, and while we may disagree with prolonging the lives of certain profoundly affected individuals, let us not forget that our mission is to preserve and protect life. There is a difference between allowing a patient capable of decision to make the choice to have life-saving intervention withdrawn or forbidden and allowing a doctor to administer a lethal dose of sedatives or barbituates. Quis custodiet ispos custodies? Who will watch the watchmen? You can put as many "safeguards" and rules and regulations around euthanasia as you like... but there will always be those with agendas to push the boundaries in ways that benefit no-one. Wendy CO EMT-B

I believe the comment about the individual being a drunk came from a post earlier in the thread from someone who is a coworker of the team depicted in the video... I also believe that other comments in this thread were pertaining to local experiences with drunks and misuse of EMS for individuals not requiring care. More later... class change. Wendy CO EMT-B