emtannie

Jamie,

If you read my last post, I did say where I work, and Squint is right - I have more than 12 years as well, and have a valid RO#.

I find it interesting that members on this site started receiving cautionary letters from a certain regulatory body after your arrival on this site, directly related to posts on this site that you have been involved in. The timing is very coincidental.... just sayin...

Having spent a significant amount of time in the financial industry, and a manager of a number of staff in that industry, watching what AHS and a certain regulatory body are doing is painful - again, my previous post outlines my concerns.

For EMS to move forward, change is needed. I don't think anyone on this site is opposed to change. What we are opposed to is change that favors special interest groups, and does not improve EMS as a profession.

"Some Daytona Beach firefighters have been fighting for the right to transport patients to the hospital, with the fees they could charge for that service helping to offset the department's costs. Volusia County has turned down requests from cities to cut in on EVAC's ambulance business, fearing it will drive up costs countywide.

Hughes said none of his people will admit to placing the bumper stickers on the patrol cars."

So they want to TRANSPORT so they can bill... can we call the "AMBULANCE DRIVERS"? I don't see anything in the article showing what education this department has to be able to provide medical care (I know, I know - small article, there is more behind the scenes, but I had to be sarcastic for a moment..)

And, of course none of Hughes' people will admit to placing the stickers.... did he expect them to put their hands up???

4c6, love your "I Ain't Funding Firefightin" - isn't that the sad truth. How many fire departments are trying to take over EMS, not so that they can provide better patient care, but to fund their own departments. That rationale is very parasitic, and will not work.

Turnip that list didn't include sedated; tsk, tsk, tsk

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming

Ahh the pup tries to correct the RT EMTP with (hundreds of) years experience..... I am sure if you ask nicely, Mr. Turnip will provide you with 50+ pages of what he is qualified to do, which obviously would include sedation.

You know this could go on for a while - at least until someone pulls the string on it.......

OUCH, not so h.... dang....

Ahh Phil -

It had to be said...

and your reply reminds me of this long-ago thread.... or should that be "string"... oh never mind..

http://www.emtcity.com/index.php/topic/11178-female-acting-drunk-check-diabetes-then-check-tampon/page__st__50__p__188200__hl__vodka__fromsearch__1&#entry188200

Perhaps this topic should be brought up at the next AGM?

I'm not sure what good this would do.

ACP has effectively silenced any voice that the membership has. It does not matter what the membership votes on at AGM, or what is brought up to ACP, they have written in their own bylaws that the board can overturn any vote the membership makes. There is no democratic process.

For example, two years ago, the members voted to stay in PAC for 2 more years. By December of that same year, the ACP board reversed that decision and removed Alberta practitioners from PAC. At that time I sent an email to our ACP president asking how this was possible, and was informed of this bylaw.

Members who have posted negative items regarding ACP on public websites have received letters of caution to not voice their opinons publicly.

This leaves the ACP membership in a situation where they can put up and shut up, revolt, or put pressure on political interest groups to make changes. The last two options take an incredible amount of planning and energy, and need the backing of a large number of members, or the members who spearhead those actions will die on that career hill by themselves.

Then how did I get in?

Everyone has one tragic mistake in their life, Phil..

Welcome to the city, basejump.

I suspect you are in Alberta, since the info on your profile says EMR...

I hope you get a number of replies to your post.

There is a huge list of qualities a good EMT should have. Some of the ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

- learn and practice good written and verbal communication skills. Nothing drives me crazier than reading a PCR that has incredibly poor grammar and spelling mistakes in it. If you are sending an email or letter, please do not use "text-speak." Write the sentences out in full, and the words out in full, rather than "u" "gr8" "l8r" or other shortened versions of words or sentences. Speak to patients and co-workers with respect. Do not use vulgar or offensive language when and where it is considered inappropriate. Learn how to deal with elderly patients. Do not rush them, and explain your actions fully. I don't know how old you are, but I see a number of new EMT's and medics who are very young, who don't have experience in working with elderly, and they tend to rush them, which makes the patient more nervous and frightened.

- ability to receive constructive criticism: Your are starting EMT, which is a good step up, and you will learn a lot. Please, listen to your instructors and preceptors with an open mind. Even if you disagree with what they are telling you, consider what they are saying as there may be something that you can take from that to improve your abilties even more. Respect their knowledge and experience.

- be willing to learn more than you need to: You know that there is a minimum standard for what an EMT needs to know. Don't settle for the minimum. Always ask yourself "am I performing to the standard that my friends would want me to attend when it is their family member?" If you can't meet that standard, work harder! Show your willingness to learn - keep up to date on your competencies. Pay attention to the interventions the medic makes when you are working with a medic. Learn the medications in the ambulance, even if it isn't in your scope to use them. The medic you work with will be happy when you know how to draw up meds, and can be of more assistance to them on critical calls if you learn more than the minimum. Now, having said this, do not forget your basic interventions. Know your basic interventions so they come as natural to you as breathing. C-spine control, basic airway maneuvers and adjuncts, providing oxygen, doing CPR, and basic bandaging should be things you can do withough much thought.

- show that you are proud of your work and your workplace: do not be the employee who shows up at one minute to shift change, and is the first one out the door at the end of shift; do not be the sloth who spends the day on the couch, and does nothing to clean up the area where you stay for your shift. If there are floors to be swept, do it. If there are dishes to be done, do them. If your ambulance is dirty, clean it. Leave the attitude at the door: as smart as you are, there is always someone smarter; as good as you are, there is always someone better.

The fact that you are looking for advice is a good sign. It shows that you are willing to learn, and you want to go into your education with as much knowledge as possible, and make the most of that education. EMS is a great profession, and I am glad you are looking at furthering your education and experience.

This site has lots of very intelligent posters, and I have learned a great deal here, and respect a number of people here who I have become friends with.

All the best in school, and let us know how it goes!

You can be an example of what a good EMS professional is while you work there, but as soon as you can, GET OUT. As others have said, the culture ther is one that will be too hard to change, especially for one person. When you get a group of people who are determined to be miserable for the sake of being miserable, you cannot change that mindset. Eventually, that service will have to do a major housecleaning to change the culture there.

Take the education you are getting there on the kind of EMS professional you DON'T want to be, and remember that throughout your career. It is very sad that those individuals have completely lost sight of why they are in EMS. They are not just harming themselves by not continuing to maintain their competencies, but they are harming the department through their attitude and poor example they set, and most importantly, they are harmful to the patient. It is probably a good thing that they only want to drive, as they probably haven't maintained their skills. Would you want a doctor who hasn't done any upgrading or maintenance of skills in the last 10, 15, or 20 years work on you or your family member? These members are no different. Through their own bad attitudes, they are cheating patients out of quality care.

I have been in EMS for almost 14 years, and volly in a very very rural area (1 ambulance for 2100 sq.mi, and a population of about 1500), and I also work paid in an urban centre (city of about 60,000). The volly service I work for has exactly the same problem. I know that some paid services have this problem as well, but it is easier to deal with in a paid service: "these are your duties, you are not meeting the duties outlined in your job description, so there's the door, and don't let it hit you on the way out." On our volly crew, we have trouble getting new members because people in our community do not want to work with 2 individuals who are exactly like you described. They only want to drive, they don't maintain their skills, and they are negative about the work and the patients 24/7. I am now the team leader of that crew, and we have been amalgamated into the regional service where I work paid. I am working with regional management to build criteria for the volunteer services in our region, to meet standards of annual training and proving of skills. It is my hope that if we apply enough pressure on these negative members to get back up to par on education and skills, they will decide to leave. I have new members who are very excited to be there, very willing to learn, and who are all looking to further their education. I don't want them to be tainted with the negativity that these two chronically spew. I would rather see a newbie who is willing, volly for experience, continue their education, and move on to a paid service, than have vollies who have been here forever, and who are so incredibly negative that they impact the rest of the department, and eventually impact patient care.

Negativity is contageous. Be very careful that you don't get infected.

Being an EMT for a whopping 7 years (and a baby medic going on 3 months now), I honestly felt I had nothing to add. I see an enormous wealth of knowledge here, and it has both humbled and educated me.

I call BS on that you have nothing to add - your post above is one of the most intelligent and educated posts I have seen lately - and I hope you continue to lurk, and post as you see fit.

They were just as capable of spending the time necessary to study as I was.

And that is part of the reason why you will always be a better medic than they will ever be. YOU put the time and effort into learning the material so that once you were in the field, it was already there, not something you would have to look up, or depend on someone else for.

I had, in my opinion, the best preceptor one could ask for. Our first meeting, he reviewed my skillset, asked questions about my grades, class, experiences, etc. Then he sat me down and told me this :

"Right now, you have the basics. Nothing more. All the books in the world aren't gonna help if all that knowledge leaks out your elbows. You have to use that knowledge, and APPLY it. This isn't a classroom, and I'm not gonna tell you you've 'done your best', or 'good try'. If I see you doing something wrong, I'm gonna call you on it (In professional fashion I should add), and you're gonna have to explain to me WHY it was wrong. YOU are the medic on this truck, and I'm the safety net. The only way you'll gain confidence is by DOING IT. So you miss an IV? Don't blame the patients rolling veins, or the lighting, or the type of catheter. You missed it because you didn't hold proper traction, or you used an incorrect angle, or whatever. I will do my best to answer, explain, instruct, and guide, but I will not coddle, baby, or make you 'feel good'."

I thought this guy was a complete a$$. It's been 6 months now, and we're best friends. My point to the story? He made me WORK to gain my confidence. He was willing to let me fall flat on my face (making sure no harm came to the patient obviously), but would take the opportunity to educate me as to WHY I fell on my face. I wasn't held by the hand like so many I've seen. I was expected to take the leadership role from the onset, not slowly lead into it. It may seem like an odd approach to most, but I for one will be forever grateful for it.

This guy is the perfect preceptor. THe point of clinicals is to test the knowledge you learned in the classroom, and apply it in the field. He allowed you to do that, and you learned from it, took constructive criticism (which many can't) and stepped up to the plate.

When I was in univ, we were in a dissection lab, and I remember my prof leaning over another student and saying "You know, always do something the wrong way first - then you will know to never do it again." That has always stuck in my head - when you make a mistake, you learn from it (or should learn from it)

Hillbilly, keep posting - I suspect you have a LOT to add to these forums.

Some excellent posts so far!

I agree with Dwayne and AK in their thinking..

I will add my two cents to it though. I know I have said this in other posts, but I will again. For too long, many parents have used the schools as their excuse for their own children not behaving as a well-adjusted member of society. My kid drinks/smokes/has sex, it must be the school's fault.

Parents have a vital role in teaching their children about life, and in relinquishing that role to schools, they leave their child open to whatever actually sinks into that brain via osmosis. Kids are like sponges - they soak up what is going on around them - and if we don't teach them, someone else will, and it may not be what we or they want.

One of the things that I see more and more of is that many parents no longer teach their children that there are rewards and consequences for actions. I suspect we all know of parents who defend their child to the last breath on something, even when they know that child was wrong "I know little Johnny vandalized 6 cars and smashed windows, but he is a good boy at home! It must have been hit little friends - he was just there." Open and honest discussion about sec, the rewards and consequences of it, shows our children that we expect them to consider their options, and the consequences of the options they choose.

LOL Lisa - a friend of mine did that with his son not too long ago. He showed him some nasty STD pics, and had the talk. Now, he didn't just scare him with that, but he also discussed the positive side of sex, and the joys it brings in a relationship. This friend of mine is an excellent father, and his three boys are growing up to be excellent members of society, because of the effort he puts in as a parent.

As for school cirriculum... if it is as bad as the material taught in the dark ages when I went to school... don't bother. Some of the girls my age might remember that really bad video we all had to watch on "Becoming a Woman - Your Menstrual Cycle." Yeah yeah, that was always the high point of my month - that video was obviously written by someone without a uterus. Give the kids the information in a factual manner, no flowery innuendos, and give them the knowledge they need.

Joe said: "I like that one thanks. On another note for a teaching tip that was given to me. Basic anatomy. Start the newbies with white t-shirts and magic markers, make them trace internal organs and palpate skeletal structure and landmarks. It's fun and teaches great anatomy skills and gets them past the touchy feally problems. Some of the shirts that we have received have been works of art. Later when asked to find specific landmarks they are more certain even with the differences of body shapes. "

I do that one with my students too - they love it.... it is quite entertaining when the more "exhibitionist" students take off their shirts to find the permanent markers have soaked through and their skin is marked too... I usually end up having a few students who wear their shirts to the cafeteria to see what other students say.

Another one I like is breaking the class into groups of 2 or 3, and giving them each a large sheet of paper (I get roll ends from the local newspaper for this). One student lays on the floor on the paper, and the other traces around them - they love the CSI theme of that part... Then they have to draw thoracic and abdominal organs on the tracing. We hang all the pictures on the wall so everyone can look at each other's. It generates a lot of laughs, and the students learn at the same time.

OK, I will quit hijacking this thread for now...

He was suggesting reviewing (yes, review is fine). He was also saying that if there are problems, then they should go back and focus on it. USUALLY there is not time for this. American EMS education is too short and therefor fast paced. In a perfect world, a chapter in a book should take several classes to go over. Not read to and using a power point slide show like many schools favor. Actually TEACHING them. The books are just tools to help teach. That is, the problem is EMS in The States. Almost everyone wants the quick and short route to get everything.

I will agree that there are a lot of issues with EMS education, one of those being the time frame of education.

I don't see where Joe said that if a student has problems with that material, they should go back and review it in class. He said "Only step in if they bomb and then only to refocus them."

Again, let's go back to the OP. The student in question KNOWS the material, and HAS the skills. That is not the problem here. The problems is self confidence. If you review literature on building self confidence in students, one of the most common methods is for that person to take a leadership role in something, usually in presenting a topic in class.

So, since it doesn't appear that you like that approach, what approach would you use to build self confidence in that student who already knows the material and already has mastered the skills?

Welcome to 5th grade pop quiz.

Sadly, with suck crappy time frames, this won't always be possible. You can't wait around for people to get up to speed. They either know it, or they don't. Try your best to get them on par, but if not.. sorry. Can't wait for you.

So, what is your suggestion to the OP in helping the student in question? In a previous post, you focussed on poor instruction, and the instructor being the problem.

Joe's suggestion is viable if an instructor is willing to structure a class accordingly and manage time frames. A 3 minute review is not going to kill a class schedule. I don't think his intent was for this review to take a significant amount of time, especially with no prep time allowed. This method does force the student to take on a lead role, which can assist a student with self confidence issues an opportunity to build confidence by putting them in a situation to stretch their skills. This would be fairly easy to implement in a classroom without screwing the schedule.

Neb, thank you for your clarification on this particular student.

Again, I think it is important to stress to this student that a lack of self confidence will kill any career aspirations she may have. EMS is not a place for someone lacking in self-confidence.

Push her, and your class, into leadership positions – have them present topics to the rest of the class; have them be team lead in a group project – this can be as simple as breaking them into groups for discussion, and having each group write down their ideas on a big sheet of paper, then having one person from that group present it to the rest of the class – each person must take a turn being the presenter. This will force this student into taking a leadership role, without singling her out.

Be careful not to avoid constructive criticism; every student has weaknesses, and they need to know what they are, so they can work on correcting them. This student’s weakness is not knowledge or skills – it is the self confidence, and it needs to be addressed, just as a knowledge or skills issue has to be addressed.

You may need to pull this student aside after class to discuss it with her, and give her the tools to improve – things like taking the leadership in class and doing presentations will help with the shyness or whatever reason she has. What are her reasons for taking this course? Where does she want to go with it? Maybe in understanding that, you can convince her to focus more on building self-confidence to attain those goals.

You have 21 students – obviously you can’t focus all your attention on one student. If isn’t fair to you, or the other students for you to do that. You and the other instructors have to decide how much extra time and effort to put into this student. If, after you have discussed her weakness, discussed how she can improve it, and given her time to work on it, and you don’t see effort or improvement, you may be forced to let her fail, not academically, but by letting her find out the hard way that her lack of self confidence will get her nowhere in EMS.

Wow Anthony, no wonder you are stressed.

Your rules and regs are pretty strict regarding vehicle contact. Although I can see where management wants staff to be conscientous about vehicle safety, I can't see where bumping a curb would be a firing offense.

I don't really have any advice to give, although your "honesty is the best policy" will always be the best bet in the long run.

If your service is willing to let good staff go over minor infractions like bumping a curb, are they also firing for patient care report errors or omissions, or errors in drug administration or grey areas in patient care? Which is more important in the long run? I think good patient care is. I think the majority of us have rubbed a curb in some point in our careers - I don't see it as a firing offense. People cannot go through life without making a single error, and those in management who think that 100% perfection, 100% of the time is the only standard, are harming their organization and their staff.

Was your intent to hit the curb? NO

Did you notice the TINY dent? NO

Did you deny that it happened? NO

Did you intentionally not report it? NO

In no way did you act in an unprofessional manner, or did you ever intend to deceive. If you actions were unprofessional, or if you had intended to deceive, that would be different, but you are not like that.

You will definately be in my thoughts as you meet with management over this, and I hope things will come out in your favor.

Annie.

If you work in a "contract back" service your protocols are unchanged.

Once AHS takes us over we will be revising protocols to what the new Med Director wants.

Ahhh - thanks for clearing that up for me! (I have been part of "the borg" for a while, so wasn't sure about contracted services)

Well I guess the whole idea of a good story really got lost yet again. Please dont post crap about volly or paid that isnt what this was suppose to be about.

Happi, your first post was excellent, and proves that there are good volly services out there. Your community is blessed to have a group of people so willing to take on both the challenge of being there for the community as an emergency service, but also taking on the challenge of working with some teens that need extra help and direction to get their lives on track. Kudos to them!

I hope, that someday, those teens that were positively affected by their experience, give something back to their community as well.

A medic who I work with once said to me "When I decided to become a medic, 4 people had to take me on as a student (here, you have 4 practicums in your journey from EMR (EMT-B for those in the US) to EMT to medic) so I feel it is my responsibilty to take on at least 4 students to give back to my profession."

Your volunteer fire department is going above and beyond to give to the community and to the fire service, and by their actions, they show that they are indeed people who are good examples to youth. Thank you for sharing your experience.

We have the same protocol....... it is a friggen joke if you ask me.

Really mobey? I thought that protocol was changed, as we "are all one" under AHS now...

If there are obvious signs of death, you don't have to do the 1 minute strip... (although I did have an incident several years ago, where I was reprimanded for being sarcastic to dispatch, because I was called to a possible death... got there, the man had been dead for some time in late July heat in an un-air conditioned house... obviously, the body was in rigor, had lividity, was bloated, and decaying. I called in to dispatch that death was confirmed, and the dispatcher said "Are you sure?" Without thinking, I replied, "Well, aside from the rigor, lividity, and bloating, I'm pretty sure." They filed a complaint that I was too sarcastic.... but I certainly wasn't questioned as to why I never ran a strip)

But, if your powers that be still want a strip, I guess you have to entertain them with one.

I figure the mnemonic DRIED is pretty good for deciding whether to run a strip.. (Decapitated, Rigor, Incinerated, Eviscerated, Decayed)

Very good points Dwayne - it is not an instructor's job to coddle students. It is our job to make sure that they are competent.

A criteria I use is "is this student good enough to work on my family member?" If the answer is no, they aren't good enough, and I tell my students that. I ask them directly "Do you think you are good enough to work on your best friend's family member?" That usually gets them to think again about how good they think they are.

I also agree with your "you did OK" thoughts. The OP said that this student does know the material and the skills, but seems to lack confidence in front of others. I suspect in this situation, it isn't a lack of confidence in knowledge or skills, but an overall self-confidence issue that needs to be aqddressed.

EMS is not for the faint of heart, and students need to realize that early in their EMT-B. The student really needs to take a good look at themselves and figure out if they can break out of that personal bubble of lack of confidence, and learn to project confidence even if inside they are thinking "holy sh*t." If they can't do that, they will never be successful.

Good thread, Neb.... I hope there will be a lot of posts on this one.

How old is this student? Are they the youngest student in the class? Are there more male students than female students? Do they only show the insecurities when in front of the class, or in a group? Or do they also show the lack of confidence when they are doing a skill or scenario by themselves, with just you watching? I am curious about the class dynamics.

I am an instructor, and I am also currently a student, so I get the benefit of being on both sides of the fence at the same time.

Have you spoken to this student one on one, with no other students around, and with no other students knowing you are talking to this student, to tell them that they are doing well, and that the only thing lacking is their self-confidence? Are they really nervous in front of the rest of the class? How long has this class been going on? If they are quite far into the course, and are still showing signs of poor self-confidence, you definately have a challenge on your hands.

Whatever you do, don't single that person out in the class. Be careful of praising them more than other students, so they don't feel more conspicuous.

Have you done a lecture as part of your class on what it takes to work in this field? It might be worth covering that in your class, to emphasize that self-confidence is key. Ask the class "If you don't have confidence, how can you expect your patient to have confidence in you?" Or, have the students prepare an assignment on the topic, and things that can be done to help self-confidence in themselves and others. Maybe make it a presentation day, where each one brings an idea.... Or, just have each student prepare a short presentation on something (I have my students each prepare a short 5 - 10 minute lecture on a drug in their protocols, and they have to explain it, the mechanism of action, the dose, and when it would be used) to get them in front of the class.

I know I have types a lot of "have you"s in this post, and you probably have done most or all of them. Although as instructors, we never want to see a student of ours be unsuccessful, there is always the one that can't make it in the long run. Despite your best efforts, and then some, this student may have walls that are too hard for you to climb over.

I will try to dig through some of the reference material I have, and if I find anything I think will be helpful, I will pm it to you.

As good as this person may be at skills, she will never succeed if she can't get past that lack of self-confidence.

.....and ironically, it was this refusal to compromise that led to a story such as this.

(edit).....

Regarding the government health care issue in my country. There is no way Americans will go for this for long. They are already mad about how much they pay in taxes. Could you imagine if we had the taxes most other countries that have full services such as health care and EMS pay? Tea party that tax hike.

I am an average person with an average living. I paid roughly 10% in income tax last year. Its no wonder I can't get decent health care and my roads are covered in potholes. Most other countries would kill for 10% income tax, but what do you sacrifice with that?

393, I found that interesting too, that it was the refusal that led to the story... when they were within their right to refuse (and as you said, not ethical, but not illegal).

With regard to your comment about taxes... yes, compared to other countries, you don't pay a lot in taxes, and yes, there are things that aren't being done because you don't pay taxes, like potholes being fixed, and getting decent health care.. and, you get what you pay for, and what you are willing to put up with.

Change happens when a catalyst occurs. Maybe this is the catalyst that will improve ambulance service in that area - too bad change usually means someone has to die before the powers that be pay attention.

OK, I am probably going to ruffle feathers with this post….

I am still trying to understand the American way of healthcare. It is my understanding that the reason that ambulance services are, for the most part, private, not municipal, is because the population does not want the government to run their healthcare, but they want to have it run like any other private business. As such, as a private business, an ambulance company offers a service, and can refuse customers who don’t meet certain requirements, just like a car dealership, or a bank. Do I understand that right?

As well, if people want ambulance services, they have to pay for it, like any other privately owned service, like shopping at the grocery store or using a taxi service.

In this case, it is terribly sad that this woman died, and it is terribly sad that the one ambulance service already had 2 units out on other calls and could not attend. It is also sad that the other service was unwilling to respond. But, if I understand the US theory of ambulance services, as a private company, they were under no obligation to respond given their current contracts with municipalities.

It is a sad sad thing that this woman died. It is a sad sad thing that her family has to deal with that. It is a sad sad thing that everyone feels bad about it… but isn’t that the way it works?

OK, please realize that the above was written in a sarcastic bent. I know that the members here in the city are here because we want to learn from each other, and want to learn how other systems work, and how we can make our little corner of the EMS world a little better. I would love to have this article never been written because it never happened. I agree with those who have posted the opinion that we are there for the people.

But my question is: how can we be angry at the service that didn’t respond, when the system is set up as a profit-generating organization, and decisions are based on bottom line profits, not ethics?

I finally got around to reading this thread, and as I read, I found some posts I would like to respond to.

JPINV posts: “Here's an idea. How about first we focus on getting teachers who know how to actually teach. One of my main issues with the concept of corporal punishment in schools is that there are too many idiots working in schools. ….(edit) ….. Just as there are too many parents who think that it is everyone's but their own job to raise their kids, there are too many little tyrants holding teaching positions to allow the schools to spank children.”

I have heard horror stories of some educational systems where the teachers do not need more than a Grade 12 diploma to be able to teach. My hope is that is the exception, not the norm.

We all know that there are poor teachers, just as there are poor doctors, and poor paramedics, and poor garbagemen (oops, that isn’t politically correct – “sanitation engineers”)

JPINV, I do agree with your comment about “too many parents who think it is everyone’s but their own job to raise their kids.” I do not think that the ills of society can be completely dumped in the classroom. These children have parents, many of whom have no parenting skills because they themselves lived in homes where their parents did not provide structure or rules, so they can’t possibly instill that in their children.

Teachers are in classrooms with how many students? How many of those students are special needs, non-english speaking, haven’t eaten in 2 days, or have other complications that interfere with learning, issues that came from home, and then were multiplied at school? And yet parents expect their child to be well-educated, well-read, and the model of society, when the school system is in disarray – how can we expect a teacher to do with 40 children what a parent can’t do with one?

Yes, I agree with you, that there are teachers who are idiots – and there are teachers who want to discipline by hitting… but I do not think that those are in the majority, and they should be removed from the system.

DwayneEMTP posted: “I agree that I need to understand it, not appreciate it, and what I understand is that it's failed. It's been proved to be a failure for almost 100 years, yet we continue to do things the same way. How about instead of holding a child responsible for the schools failure we create an educational system that doesn't make children so scared, bored, angry and frustrated that they need to exhibit these behaviors in the first place? How about if we hold the 'grown ups' responsible for the education of children instead of the children? Doesn't that seem to be a more logical, realistic approach to educating?”

I agree to a point… however, nowhere in this post, do I see that the parents should take the majority of the responsibility., You did say that “Until we, as those with the physical/intellectual power, take responsibility, as a society, for our failures in raising and educating our children, nothing is going to change.” Yes, society should… but the largest responsibility remains with the parent. Now Dwayne, I think I know you well enough that you would agree with me that the parent has the most responsibility.

I recall the threads on Obama health care, and the comments of “I had this child, it is my job to pay for their health care.” Should this same attitude not apply to their education, and turning these children into human beings who are conscientious, willing to work, and who respect themselves and others? Again, Dwayne, I suspect you will agree with me on this.

We can jump up and down about schools and teachers all we want…. But the weight of the problem starts at home, and needs to be solved at home.

Do we need paddling in schools? Should there be paddling in schools? Definitely NOT! We need parents who are willing to discipline their children, who are willing to spend time with their children, and who are role models for their children. We need families who value honesty and hard work, and consequences for bad behavior. We need parents who, instead of saying “it couldn’t possibly be my child, because he is such a good boy at home” to realize that their little golden child is quite possibly not so golden when their back is turned. We need parents who do more than throw money at their children instead of parenting. And, we need parents to support those teachers who are doing quality work, and parents who will speak up against teachers who break the will of students to learn through their own lack of control.