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But the fire damage would be less ? these are operative word9s) sprinkle systems not flood system, and it is not holly wood. Many types of safeguards can be built in, limiting activation to the detected room, heat sensing, smoke sensing, frangible or fusible triggers, ps CO monitors not a bad idea either. I would rather dry out my "stuff" than loose my life and if you did really have a fire pouring water from a 2.5 inch hose completes the total right off ... seriously if your out in the boonies its the only way to go. AND about damn time! This will save lives, property and lower insurance costs, but you seam to be more concerned about property than life ? ... if one looks to the research even fire detectors that alarm are useless, especially for kids .. they sleep right through them but hey not through a shower ! I have seen the Videos and If I can find somewhere hidden in my files ... it I will post it. cheers

It certainly is a good thing that literacy, spelling or logic does not come into question otherwise "benzo man" would pull be asking "did you want fries with that burger sir'? cheers and good grief.

Firstly I am very sorry for your loss, but the picture you have tried to paint is very confusing to start with from a medical perspective, at least you are now being honest after ERDOCs advice .. so you have advanced up the food chain in intergrity in my books. If you wish support to become an EMT or Paramedic this is a great place to bounce things around that said if your looking for support in a possible lawsuit well its called "hearsay" and would be thrown out of court in a New York heartbeat. Honestly, you will be much better off seeking assistance from a real licensed solicitor and I am quite certain there are a few "on line" legal advice types that could take on "Pro Bono" (sp) that could help your cause in a possible wrongful death suit, but attempting to use a Paramedic internet forum site and quote (s) will NOT help your case in the slightest, I AM sensing you want to know more ... and this is good for the grieving process. You want some advice .... no worries happy to help you out, and its not gospel its just my opinion. 1- Document the entire event completely and leave out your opinion, just the facts observed by yourself as well as any others that were witnesses and the comments made by all parties. 2- Ask to have a copy(s) of the call report by the operator ... if they will not provide this courtesy to a direct family then your going to have to consult a lawyer, it could be a clue as to the integrity of the operator ... if they ask to meet with you then by all means comply but bring an impartial individual as a witness .. maybe your queries could be answered directly and reach a conclusion without a 3 year legal battle resulting in you being absolutely broke and even more emotionally upset. So ask yourself this question ... would your Father want you to proceed in this fashion ? Please be realistic your father was a true cardiopath this is bottom line, CABG i.e. Bypass is not a treatment its a surgical procedure and indicates that angiography/ angioplasty was not an option (and a very serious situation in 2000 from your history) besides the research outcome studies of those that have had CABG and 9 years of survival post surgery was a damn good outcome in my books ! I sure hope you got a few good fishing days in with your DAD, cause if you did count yourself lucky. Lets look at the facts in regards to medication and Past Medical treatment alone: From your Fathers list of medications on nitro, (angina) asa, (platelet inhibitor) oxycontin,(narcotic analgesia) ativan, (antianxiety) Coreg, (a complex Beta Blocker) Diovan (anti hypertension) AND with an implanted pacemaker/ defibrillator, (I could only guess with the info provided, exactly why) Then the EF of 15 % is most likely angiography/ ultrasound finding(s) and extremely rare that the use of any medications ie Coreg would improve left Ventricular function to normal EF ~ 45 to 55%, quite seriously your Father was not long for this world ... YES harsh words but your asking for a realistic approach well the buck stops here, ps Teddy R. was one of my favorite of your Presidents. If you suspect there is some type of cover up and practicing beyond scope (of which you infer) then there are government agencies that you can contact, your DEA, boards of health and state regulatory bodies but be damn certain you can prove ANYTHING before you go that route it could end up with you on the stand with false accusations, if 400 bucks an hour is your Lawyers rate you could end up immigrating to Mexico on very short notice. . We have good and weak members as in any group of professionals do and not personally being present this becomes quite awkward to suggest tangible advice, but you asked for help. Again cut, copy, paste from any identity (non disclosed identity on any website) will be NOT be used by ANY lawyer it is basically just conjecture and with the information provided I would not personally go out on a limb and throw support to either side without a very good impartial look at all the documentation and interviews. Its great that your trying to do your homework but as you have just observed we as a professional group on this forum site alone have enough experience to catch and expose those that (as you have witnessed) your dealing with some people that already survive based an very effective BS indicator's on a daily basis, some are quite offended when someone attempts to pull one over. On a side note I lost my Mother a year ago in hospital post surgical complications and it becomes very easy to point a finger at this or that treatment or what a health care providers "persieved attitude" and some how that contributed to a negative outcome. This for some is part of the grieving process we try to lay blame on someone or something and being caught up with a very emotional time hell, we are after all just human, no way I will fault you for being upset. Ok, now take every "passing comment' from a neighbor with a grain of salt they may not have heard or quoted the comment in its true sense or tenor and NOT to say that it was NOT that way at all. I would try to stay neutral, if its a Fire Based operation they too were most wanting to be with their brothers as there friends lives could have been in jeopardy as well. This can become a double edged sword when one is dealing with any integrated service with Fire/ Medics as the daily changing roll(s) can become VERY confusing, factor in a "hypothetically" that a young family was trapped in a house fire .... I hope you understand that sometimes the "big picture" is not quite as obvious as one wants it to be . Hmmm, well time for some explanations then ... I will not take sides but with a few years of experience often what the Patient tells the EMT, RN, or MD varies widely, and the moreover the level of writing skills, based on education and training .. these are huge variables. Ok more unsolicited advice .. don't use codes as a lay person, no matter how much drug they may or may not have on hand this is quite irrelevant, (agreed, a stupid to comment on scene but arrogance in most cases is not grounds for wrongful death suit) and what had your Father taken before with his medications and was he being honest with the Medics ... just to be fair I have had OD patients deny taking any meds to later confess to an MD a completely different situation. The dose is the issue and 3 minutes after administration and "as you suggest a subsequent arrest" but I am gathering that you were not physically present on this call, yet if the time frame is correct then yes more investigation is needed. As for ECG is "FINE" very, very doubtful as pacemaker implants are not placed willy nilly there is an underlying reason, I will forgo the multiple medical reasons for application of pacemaker implants (and types) as without a very good comprehension of Cardiology ... straight up its pointless to continue this point. Big question is if your Father was involved in a study then contact Medtronic for their in-sight they have very deep pockets legal advisors very knowlgable researchers .. but don't walk in with a lawsuit on your mind, or you will hit a wall. Ok not following at all but there is a difference between empathy, sympathy and internal departmental grievances, don't let this cloud your judgment some "rooks" (as you put it) find out they are WAY out of their league. Quite possibly .. but with your fathers history perhaps this was just his time too no matter who responded. If you are truly aspiring to become a Paramedic yourself then use this as a life lesson, perhaps fate will motivate you to become a Great Medic yourself, as many of us get into this truly thankless profession just for personal reasons as a motivation. Any time one losses a loved one its not a good night for anyone and heroism in my humble definition is "over coming ones fear and putting their own life in jepordy to help someone" don't confuse heroism with duty to the community, pulling a hose or driving a truck is NOT Heroism in my books. Yes I hope you do ... as always 2 sides to a coin .... cheers <edited for spelling and proof reading after the fact>

Just where can an EMT give MS to start with ????? Wow that Coreg is magic stuff ! I think ERDoc has called this one right . .... another phishing expedition I suspect too. Hint: Occupation:aspiring future ems

Anna_09 Hilarious ... if you can't laugh at yourself ... all is lost. Brings back memories, ok so I will fess up too ... I asked a "some guy" in a Stairwell on a Code if he knew CPR ... NO I have never worked for the railroad ... (a rather stunned look on his face) Well maybe its a just Canadian thing, ie that the Canadian Pacific Railway .... but My very experienced trainer laughed his ass off. I will cannot speak of the paralyzed man with a turnip up his rectum .... oh yes it happens ! Richard B the EMT Non issue. Try the guy in the string bikini type underwear, and black lace bra that doesn't match his beard and mustache. That is so a reportable fashion offense! LMFAO

Dang You Brattlet ... now just why didn't I think of that ? Its all that high powered edjumication speaking is my bet, but shouldn't you be hitting the books ? But absolutely use my parts too, cornea, kidneys, skin and bone but I think my liver may not be the best of choices, I think I am wearing that organ out,and ps the 50 y/o and Father thing was very just hurtful ... sniff / ouch Ah shucks I try, but I must bow to Ruffums, croaker, akroeze, AZCEP, Kaisu, fiznat, zzyzx and all the others that took the time to post valuable info and real life experience(s) as these do count for a lot and ... oh and that DwayneEMTP guy too who I hope work with one day, thats if AK ever answers my bloody Email . ps that AK is a bad egg ... !

The lack of clarification of clear information is not tangible grounds to discuss or entertain a valid cessation of life support in the field with this pity information provided. . I hope Kaisu does mind the plagerizm but the real point is some are not listening to the advice of very experienced EMS providers, of whom 80 % of those polled are telling that your "opinion" is unfounded and you are in fact are arm chair quarterbacking yourself and after the fact as well .. I highly suspect in your hall to generate controversy (and will bite you in the ass) just my suspicion but your looking for affirmation that your opinion is somehow more politically correct. I love this response .. everyone ? is again 80 % that your are wrong clearly in your opinion, you have not learned that you can be tangented on the social aspects ONLY .. look to your original post it is full of "social" inference lacks solid medical evidence or clinical observations and many questions still remain unanswered. If this was actually your call you would be shredded in court challenge and I have a poor attitude? Ok then go with that if it makes you "feel" better, and as a sidebar this call was NOT about you at all. If one looks to the seniors in EMT city .. the good ones state the disscussion then wait for questions, provide answers and then discuss, this methodology one receives positive unbiased information and clear in-sight. Want an honest opinion ... your more concerned with what people think, that do your job. So to go the extra mile with my poor attitude: In a court of Law this criteria would be considered ... can one with this scenario answer all criteria without reservation in the presented post ... cheers Maybe just me but could you explain that ...

As a 26 year veteran just as Paramedic it is well within my scope/guidelines as well and not the issue here at all, note I left out "protocol" Did you read the Criteria of Death Harvard ad Hoc committee, the short answer is NOPE ! Want a free education just follow the links provided, besides a historical perspective of Hypocraties view on head injuries, besides some very thought prevoking personal positive anecdotal recollections of positive outcomes despite the protocol factor. I whole heartly disagree the lack of clarification of clear information is not tangible grounds to discuss or entertain a valid cessation of life support in the field with this pity info and why dust makes legal and the lazy arse comment. Is it not clear that the OPs post from the onset is less that straight up ? he/she it has brought this dubious scenario to the masses to support he/she/its ..... IN MY OPINION. A forgone conclusion the patient WAS worked and given every chance and ODDLY No mention of the actual paramedics explanation or rational thought's ... come on .... a good discussion based on ..... Pupils fixed, (no response back from the OP upon questioning to light) deviated, hmmm? no obvious devastating signs other than a possible MOI. A possible pulse ? A possible PEA and no rate? No Time considerations, response or transport ? Ands No follow up answers to questions. BUT I have learned something .... I should stop bothering to get involved with stupid scenarios lacking enough criteria to decide to wipe my arse because it could be a fart or a double coiled dump. I would not work this one.

Agreed ! It is beginning to become apparent that the "Dinozzo Headslap" is ineffective as an educational technique, Look again to the OP ... this is all second hand information and an extremely poor presentation of a scenario ... I heard, I was told ... I am smarter than my Field Medic .... good grief. Now Duty to call Dead ? ... ahem is that in a protocol somewhere and I missed it ?

Heres My Opinion .... FAIL just based on the pithy information provided. Call this man dead without FAR better documentation that you have provided here and your going to be talking with a medical director and a lawyer right quick IMHO. With electrical activity documented recorded on ECG one could be between a rock and a hard spot in a court, if one is a Basic and calling the shots you would most likely be looking for a job in food services. ps when in doubt WORK IT, besides you can't hurt a dead man. This report and request for support for your opinion may be just self serving and second guessing the lead medic is ill advised for any longevity in this industry. Told ? Did you look and also stated was return of pulse on scene was that with CPR or without CPR Did you personally check pulses ? Asystole is DOA and confirmed in 2 leads and OBVIOUS signs of death like decapitation, gravity dependent lividity and rigor mortus. Jeepluv77: Makes a good discussion and if one takes the time to review Hippocrates perspective on head injuries, I believe her personal anecdotal experience it is quite clear that premature "judgment" is not always correct .. and most pleased to hear of the positive outcome. http://classics.mit.edu/Hippocrates/headinjur.html Hindsight is always 100 % when the outcome is past history. The fool is YOU because you have provided no clear criteria on signs of death. Please review Criteria of Death Harvard ad Hoc committee and Croakers comments. Unfortunately without a much more detailed description, evaluation of chest, abdo, or possibility of long bone fractures, position found, down time, any reflexes, lividity, rigor, time of day or night, smell of ETOH, PMHX, weather conditions, response times, ALS or BLS availability, transport times to ER, level of care in recieving facility .. ie Neuro on consult ? and Dusts comment .. how many patients ? OR even what has been done for the patient ... ie intubated ? IVs ? Volume infused, any meds given ... was this PEA was it a Tachy or Brady ? Hey man ... all these are serious mitigating factors and should be included in any scenario before asking for support for ones opinion. Further Shredding. How do you know ... did you actually palpate, again without xray vision your just "guessing" if this was a possible open or closed head injury. Eyes deviated are not a sign's of devastating head injury, actually quite diagnostic they could be an indication of sub dural. When you say fixed, again did you evaluate, no where did you state unresponsive to light either consensual or direct. Seriously: If I were your Supervisor and I saw this on line ... it would be a very hard Dinozzo HEADSLAP ! cheers

You just like those boots ... come on we know you just like all the leather ! whoo hoo ... this thread is looking up !

You have a phobia about pins in EMS, so do needles scare you too, good grief what a silly thread. Hey maybe try a hot glue gun or a neck tat ? .... besides the fact that brass is non magnetic. Besides the fact Brass is called Brass is because it is dress uniform stuff not a working stiffs gak ... Timmy has got it right (like the Nazis) LOL> Good one ! Besides if its "brushed brass" and we used those back in the day for name tags, they light up like a beacon when you shine a flash light on them, not my first choice unless to want your neck as a target. cheers and good luck with your phobia .

My protocol requires three "F___ O__'s" before I cancel.

Nope: I don't believe I inferred that we are doomed as a profession, just look beyond your borders for some examples of progress, but when your looking in a mirror your not going to get very far ... especially if you look like me ... turnip face .. te he. http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/colu..._have_that.html I believe we have to learn from others trial(s) and error(s) and not keep repeating our own history, thats where we as a group fail horribly we are trapped in our own paradigm. We first have to overcome the problem of finger pointing, especially if its to blame slow development in EMS on one group or another because that is akin to "Circle the Wagons and SHOOT into the Middle, Mentality" this is almost never productive, one does not hear the IAFF complaining paid vs volly. One can not state empirically because many geographical areas can not afford anything more than reliance on those that realistically "just want to help out" but for some reason this is accepted by the public ... well until they find out first hand 'vive la differance' It certainly does shoot a profession down in flames when an 80 hour course in first aid allows someone to get behind the wheel of a Ambulance when others have minimum of 3 years of education invested. I believe its a matter of education ... of those elected officials as the priority. I can not believe that unpaid Volunteers if handed a pay cheque would refuse to cash it. Its the system that allowed this to occur but for some stupid reason the legislators allow this to continue ? WHY ? Lobbying Local/ State / National Government and a serious education of those controlling the purse strings, this the means to the end IMHO and that can only be accomplished with collective organization and representation of labour whatever one wants to use as a handle. cheers

HuH? IFAA = International ASSOCIATION of FIRE FIGHTERS ... did you miss the association part ? Its the largest Union in North America btw. But you are on the right track their "benzo man" push standards that would eliminate the do gooders ... ever see or hear of a full time volunteer MD or RN ? ... other than a humanitarian effort ? cheers

The definition of Polarization: UNION=BAD ? ASSOCIATION=GOOD ? WTF ?? Dust you took the union wage or did you take a cut in pay ? Heck here the fees are garnished anyway so you would chose not to have an opinion ? Umm that would be just slightly out of character. So Question: Does the name or title of the organization representing Paramedicine really matter ? Or do the bylaws that mandate to the elected leaders (of whatever one wishes to call an organization) as these are the real tools to keep things on the tracks and in accomplishing any goal. Hey call it a Constitution if you wish, you Americans love that deal and will fight to the death over it. ps Dust I know your armed but I am in hiding ... LOL> Just an an example but writing a nasty letter to government / employeer whatever, JUST DON'T CUT the MOOSE TURD ! One has to have the entire membership / voters with some serious clout and serious options / leverage to advocate any change or improvement in any area, otherwise your just spinning your wheels in the snow and the only thing you will receive is lip service ONLY or 15 seconds of local news coverage. In theory we TOO live in the supposedly free state but don't believe that its the truth PLEASE, the thing is that in political sciences there is no PURE system ANYWHERE ... If there were then there would be no bail outs for big companies i.e. as in capitalism (just in passing) and another point being even in a communist system (where everyone is equal) but some being more equal that others, and Please don't confuse Socialism with a Communist state either again polarization and one hits walls again, that said. Besides the fact that state/ provincial/ territorial regulations in standards vary so much ! PGEMTP: I see that you include the CCEMT-P so ... is that the 2 week course or a 6 month in hospital program ? again no standardization ..... this is all I am saying. Now Retrospectively WE had an Prehospital Professions Association in Alberta then it magically changed to just a regulatory body the province took over and sadly under the very poor guise of "self regulation" I call it the fairies magic wand of legislation so then one needs yet another layer of representative (in one form or another) and not to JUST represent labour but to advance the profession, if one allows the employer to dictate wages in a private service for profit .. well good luck paying your mortgage, question is that working for YALL at 9 bucks an hour ? I believe that being reimbursed appropriately for ones education/ experience say as in Nursing just off the top of my balding head in fact all 3 goals in nursing here are extremely well represented and an very effective means to an end. The AARN is called Alberta Association of Registered Nurses but they also negotiate for wages and working conditions, clear regulation and advancing their profession in one "entity" and therfore only one wallet ... just me but this could be the reason for acceptance of RNs. Therefore should we reinvent the wheel or learn from history .. just saying. Should we not look to this as a solution, it works that way for IAFF as well, maybe as WE (just fell off the turnip truck as a Profession) and we could be entirely missing the boat entirely. Perhaps first set standards and very similar to RNs which are very much standardized in many many countries. I believe we have much to learn from RNs and FF and LEO's just look at their wages and working conditions compared to ours .. need I say more ? We in Alberta now face: 1- Union involvement (and dictated by Alberta Health as its the employer now in a so called Public Health Care System, its a no brainer) and 2- a separate regulatory body bent on implementing the governments will ... again. and 3- an association, with absolutely zero for teeth in any issue (s) well back to the (I got so mad I wrote a Letter scenario) sheesh. NOW due to dissection of the troops many members HERE again are looking for another type club to get things back on track, as the vast majority have seriously lost faith with all these splinter groups and in this writers opinion the divide an concur technique has been very successfully implemented by our elected government officials then appointing more government "YES" men / women" to put controls in place. Honestly if one is so ignorant as to believe PreHopspital Care is about Saving Lives ... give yourself a pinch ... cause bottom line .... its all about the money ..... it always is. cheers

Te He .... YES it is true ! Ahem 4cmk6 ..... and Canukistan too svp, but perhaps maybe contact us for some advice and direction prior to set up ? I would enjoy reviewing bylaws of this proposed "association" prior to vote to acceptance by your membership no point reinventing the wheel and as a side bar the NSW association/union, that is in OZ are in my opinion one of the most "influential" and positive groups representing Paramedic Officers world wide. Oddly enough we in Alberta Canada have a regulatory body (it started out as an advocacy for EMS providers and an association in 1983) but then was strong armed by the government and we are left with yet just another layer of bureaucracy ... heavy on the cracy part and we now face more attempts at developing yet more associations/unions to deal with all the real issues that affect the EMS workers and actually promote Paramedicine in our frozzen arse nation. cheers and good luck with that.

Mobey: Why not contact your NEW provincial medical director, it should be HIS call now with transition .... but if your present medical director is not reviewing PCRS or reviewing practice protocols and policys... your service is not complying with present regs under HDA ... the operative phrase being "ongoing medical audit" as this is a mandatory requirement. cheers

Hey Hey thats Montreal Protocol ... those French Canadian freaks ... LOL>

Thanks LS ... I just love that TV show, I had no idea that a Dinosso headslap was on You Tube I stand corrected. Cote de Pablo is smokin hot, reminds me of someone on EMT city and Weatherly aka Dinosso is freaking hilarious when he gets on a roll. cheers

WELL THEN! I as a proud member of NAAEAS and WMCJ demand that a equal percentage of White Basketball Players be appointed to the NBA ... well thats using the exact same methodology as FF promotions is it not ? BTW Thats the National Association for the Advancement of Euro-Americans in Sport or White Men Can't Jump ... good grief bat man.

Well someone did some investigation ... Anthony... even when your sick with Human Swine Flu your sharp ! te he ... did you get to write exams ? These Signs can be observed when one has meningeal irritation its not a matter of % its a matter of severity or progression of the disease, the cause ? Another point as meningitis can be bacterial and/or viral and many EMS providers believe that meningitis in itself is a diffinative dx ... hmmmm. Not until the pathogen has been identified through virology or C+ S cultures (usually Post mortum) unless you have a dang good ER MD, and using a shotgun approach but then MOST do the Peads Consult Flip. Group B Strep (70%) in the neonate under 2 months is most common horse and non vacinated older kids you could be looking at H. Inflenza. STREP can be paediatric pharnygitis OR Strep pnemonia, my previous post refered to the common EMS (mis) understanding, hence my suggestion in looking down a gullet and futher evaluation as chbare suggests. Can you see now why this instructor was so off base ... well just in my perspective ? Your talking Nuchal ridgity in paeds, it is highly unlikely the 2 to 4 y/o will describe their neck hurts upon flexing, Nuchal ridgity is when the pt. cannot flex neck or involuntary neck muscle spasm limits passive neck flexion .. much more likely this is vocalised or a complaint in an older patient. Will not disagree BUT Kids when febrile "usually" don't cooperate cause there to damn busy crying (which is a GOOD sign btw) crying kids are moving air, quiet kids are BAD. Cow Pox, Malaria IS the point ... that is the Zebra's ... the Horses are Meningitis, Strep Throat, Otitis media for most common on the hit parade for fever. But I guess I'll let him handle ya Oh no doubt ... a dumb ass Paramedic contesting any MD will recieve wrath right or wrong. I have made a few look silly but usually pay for it in the long run ... they have this tendancy to get even Crotchity will I have no doubt have a come back as well ... usually pointless drivel ... but that is just cheap entertainment after all cheers

So a query zilla: So just how with this very "scanty" information presented in this hypotherical senario could or would affect the treatment in any way to an EMS provider in the field ? These are not ER MD's, these are Paramedics and EMTs capable of supportive care ONLY and no where near close to definitive Dx or treatment unless life threatning situation occurs ie ABCs ... sounds far more of a dog / instructor chasing its tail, instead of clearly pointing out and factoring in all the possible diff Dx. If one read's the OP's following post he "went to the books" to differentiate between Meningitis vs Strep not the entire gambit of febrile paeds patho ... heck zilla your right, but it could be Malaria or Cow Pocks too just saying the instructor failed to make his point clear and I have a sneaking suspicion the OP chose to use the horses vs zebras as a title for the tread. I guess I was in error attempting to introduce some teaching i.e. meningeal signs and cardinal signs of Strept Throat, ps I do like the way croaker presents his views. Quite obvious that crotchitymedic in his following post jump on the kid "complaining of sore neck ' a room full of figher fighters and further tangents and totally missed the boat AGAIN .. Brudzinski or Kernigs Signs, are Signs NOT Complaints ... sheesh. Honestly crotch you scare me, I put my money on you worked in pediatric hospital's ER as a porter. I wonder why I even bother to post these days.

I am a huge fan of the TV series NCIS ... well besides the female actresses are smoking hot ! Gibbs an ex marine is the boss crime busting investigator and when his "probie" steps out of line, a open handed slap to the back of the head "tunes" his sometimes comical #2 in command up, to think about what he is doing and redirect focus. My father used this correction technique with great success to gain attention and limit wasteful time in meanless conversation, seriously if my partner put me on the floor or threw me around in the back of a gut wagon it would be more akin to the "Wrath of Khan" I just do not tolerate this type of driving that Katiebug describes ... ITS MY LIFE TOO! cheers

I must have been wasted ... the nickname was "Foot Long" mybad ? te he