1835wayne

.................the EMT-B cautiously pokes his nose into the room and asks.............. "Need any help beating dead horses in here or should I call the ASPCA???" Some very valid points on both sides of the coin here. But I think the defining post, and really the only reasonable stance is this............. Considering the high price of Paramedic classes ($3200.00 plus books and testing costs) and a year and a half of your life to learn how to do something you might not like in the end........... OR you start by taking EMT-B ($550-650) and six months of your life to learn how to do something you might decide to learn more about............... :wink: :wink:

Hmmmm................ Evidentally this thread has been forgotten............ BUMP!!!

Sorry it took so long to reply, the Captain(me) has a lot to do. Writing people up for stupidity, ........... Well, I could start a whole new thread with that one! When I stated an ambulance at every Fire Station, I did not mean a BLS rig. I meant ALS. That would be ideal. Not necessarily FD EMS either. Gary FD does this, the EMS and Fire are two different departments of the FD, sharing stations. However, here in the real world, the money just isn't there. Is utilizing existing numbers of firefighters to handle EMS the answer? Not on your life. What is the answer??? Depends on who you ask. Can we cut the numbers of firefighters to bolster EMS?? No. Read this. http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/a...16&id=57546 The "Unrelated Emergencies" was an EMS call. Would they have been able to save that man if the other two men assigned to the ladder truck were there????? Maybe, maybe not. But it would have been a better chance for this man. Can FD's take on all the EMS calls and fires with the existing staffing?? No. But that is what many communities are expecting of them. Do it all for less. I don't have the answer for the reality of the situation. No one does, or it would be being done. Maybe not exactly the answer you were looking for, but it is what I got.

Wow indeed. I am pretty mild mannered until I run into this type of crap. I am here to discuss EMS issues, not rehash the same stupidity I have spoken against at FH.com for years. So, without further ado, What was the question that I did not answer Dwayne?? I promise to get down off the soapbox and answer in a civil, intelligent manner. If I offended anyone with my previous post, you might need to ask why it was offensive to you and examine that. :twisted: Namecalling notwithstanding of course. I DO regret that, it was unprofessional of me.

WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you want to argue this damn topic go to Firehouse.com forums with the rest of the wackers and blue light crusaders! As a LONG time volly your posts insult me. I behave professionally at my VFD and am a Professional at my FD. Yeah, so I get paid. So what , you don't. Doesn't make it more heroic. As for Fuck the IAFF, YOU SNIVELING IGNORANT LITTLE TWIT!! DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT ALMOST ALL OF THE SAFETY IMPROVEMENTS IN THE FIRE SERVICE ARE A RESULT OF THE IAFF FIGHTING FOR THEM??? HOW DARE YOU DISMISS THE HARD WORK BY MY UNION BROTHERS THAT HAS MADE IT SAFER FOR YOU AND ME TO FUNCTION AS FIRE FIGHTERS!!!! GO TO FH.COM WITH YOUR TIRED IGNORANT BOMBASTIC GARBAGE AND PICK A FIGHT. YOU ARE A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THE ATTITUDES THAT ARE WRONGWITH FAR TO MANY VOLS. :evil: :evil: Before you decide to deride me for my stand, know that I am an officer in my states Vol firemans association. This is not an anti vol post, just an anti moron post.

Without hearing the tapes, I cannot say for sure if the dispatcher relayed ALL the information or not. I am just playing devils advocate here. I do not mean to beat up on dispatchers, but as a supervisor I have experienced my dispatcher not putting the entire transmission in the radio log, misquoting callers to the point of causing complete confusion, and fabricating information instead of just saying they did not know. By the same token, I have 2 dispatchers who are excellent to the point of replaying the tape after they dispatch the call and then giving us the exact words of the caller when we go enroute. I do not have an axe to grind with dispatch. Edited for spelling.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: WOW. I sincerely hope that the dispatcher now realizes a little more caution is in order. What if the first on scene had been the medics who simply try to run from the shotgun wielding maniac? Good possibility for a LODD there! OR- Did the man react negatively to the LE uniform, where he might have been peacefull with EMS??

Dustdevil wrote: Sure. I have stated repeatedly now that ALS ambulances should be distributed in the same manner that fire suppression apparatus are now to truly serve the people properly. I am not now, nor have I ever advocated I do not think you can accurately describe a BLS or ALS engine company as just "someone". The training is the same, the continuing education is the same and the protocols within the same system are the same. I do not care whether it says FD or EMS on the patch on their sleeve as long as the standard of care is maintained. Isn't that what it should be about in the first place?? The patient?? On a side note, I know a FD that runs an ALS rig that is staffed full time and when there is a house fire, the duty crew dresses out and makes entry with a water can if there is someone still inside, sometimes before the engine company(all vol from the same department) arrives.

Well Dust, as for the original post topic. I did read the article and the entire thread before posting. My answer? It varies. If the FD is in need of EMT-B's or P's, they should hire them. As a blanket requirement for any FD, no. It is one of those questions that has no clear cut single answer for all locales and systems. My career FD requires it, but we have extremely limited staffing and it is crucial(Speaking as a Supervisor)that they all have the certification so that calling in someone for a call off, or setting up the crew roster for the shift much easier. My VFD does not require any training to join(Fire or EMS), however our Chief is a Fire instructor III and a EMS Primary instructor for all levels and we can do our training in house as we have several other Instructors also. Our Department requires that all new members attain FFI and II, and First Responder within two years of joining. Returned home and limited deficits. By our protocols we can of course do CPR, OPA-NPA or combitube if needed, Defib and O2. The idea is NOT to replace ALS care, but simply to initiate BLS care and attempt to stabilive the patient until the ALS rig can make it there. The FD(BLS) are part of the County EMS(ALS) in most cases(We are "Stand alone" do not need EMS approval to run calls in our jurisdiction.) and are part of the same system with the same medical director. First off, in Indiana, the combitube is a EMT-B skill. I prefer the OPA-NPA myself, but the combitube is nice when in a rush and limited on manpower on a full arrest, and the NPA-OPA is not working. It isn't really, but isn't it nice to have more hands to lift the fatties?? As further clarification, I would NEVER advocate a reduction in resources on EITHER side. Is EMS understaffed? Well, duh. Is Fire? Again, duh. :roll: :roll: :roll: no. Oversimplification. True enough, but when those "few fires" happen it will still take the same number of firefighters and apparatus to mitigate that incident with a good response time. How about we station an ALS rig at every Fire Station in the country with full time staffing? Will it make it better? Your words, not mine. As long as you look down your nose at the FD based EMS, and the FD in general..........this conversation will go nowhere. I have a great deal of respect for Paramedics, and what they do. I have been EMT on an ALS rig long enough to know that. I missed your FD knowledge? Do you have any? Not an antagonistic question, just curious.

Well, I guess I woke everyone up with that one!!! First off, I am an old hand at forums, so I understand that it is not meant to be personal. I am actually torn on the idea of combining Fire/EMS. I work in two systems, one where the FD is used as First Responders and the county runs EMS, and the other where we are Fire based EMS(ALS). At work(Fire based) we run mostly minor medical and some REALLY hairy trauma (Like earlier this year when the BOF burped and spewed molten steel on 7 people) with the occasional MI. The Paramedic does NOT have to be a firefighter, and on a fire scene is there as the sector commander for the Medical sector. Everything is fairly hunky dory there with this system. At home, we run BLS out of the FD and the ALS rig comes from a town about 12-15 miles away. This also seems to work pretty well. What would be better would be to have the monies and resources available to put a full time ALS rig at every FD in the county. Would we need the First Responder program anymore? Maybe not, but then you have your REALLY bad days when everything turn to liquid feces in a hurry and then you are glad to have the FD there to run and fetch, help lift the fatties, etc....... I know I have not answered all the questions, but I have to get to the mill. I am the LT, and some of my FF are bonified axe swinging,knuckle dragging hose jockeys who will get lost without an Officer there to guide them! :shock: I will try to post from work later.

In my FD's area, we have to wait 10 minutes or more for an ALS rig to reach us. For a cardiac, we have defib and combitube to add to the"First Responder skills". We have had two saves this year. Can we do it by ourselves? Of course not! But having BLS non-transport agencies respond provides our county EMS with several things; rapid response of Defib and manpower to lift the fatties and help on full arrests. The First Responders have helped our county EMS to be ALS provider of the year for Indiana 5 times. Our Chief was one of the pioneer Paramedics in the state of Indiana and is a firm believer in Fire based EMS. With more manpower, and dropping the silly requirement that all EMS personnel should have to be a Firefighter , EMS providers as a separate entity could cease to be. The answer is simple, early defib, early CPR. Is it ideal?? No. But it is the best that can be done with the monies available and the limited numbers of Paramedics in the country today. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Wow. I am shocked and dismayed by this comment. It takes so many people and pieces of apparatus to fight a house fire. No matter where in the world you live, fire burns the same way. Cutting the FD like that would only result in more fatalities(Civilian and Firefighter) and bigger burn wards. Fire triples in size every 5 minutes. Cut the number of firehouses and trucks and people will die. Even though the numbers of fires are down over the last ten years, it still takes the same work to save lives and property. Delaying response due to fewer companies and less apparatus is IMHO a recipe for death and destruction. Shamefull suggestion. I am not going to comment on the negatives you noticed with the crew you were with, but as to why the Fire Medics might have been more aggressive, etc....... The fire service is, by definition, an agressive orgnization. We crawl into burning building while the rats are crawling over us to get out. You have to be aggressive. Or just plain nuts.

WOW. I am going to make my first post here in this thread????!!!! YEP. Fire based EMS can and does work. Does it work as well as a EMS department?? It varies from location to location, and depends on what Medic is on the rig that day! Does a burned out Medic on a county run EMS do a better job than a caring Medic on a FD run rig?? Lets just start arguing about paid vs. volunteer and what blue light moves traffic best next! :roll: :roll: To answer the poll, I do not believe it should be a requirement unless the department is facing a shortage of EMS trained personnell and have to provide the service. I think that is likely where the requirement got started. As for further combination of services. I think that it is going to continue. I don't like it in all situations, but there is almost no way of stopping it. The politicians want to save money, and if they can staff an engine with two guys and put two guys on an ambulance out of the same house to respond with the engine as firefighters on fires, they just got more bang for their buck(IN THEIR OPINION NOT MINE)!! I look for more"Public Safety Departments" in the future where they will want us all to wear freakin gunbelts and chase speeders too!! :evil: As for me, I am a 16 year Firefighter, 7 years in EMS. My home Department is a Volunteer FD/ BLS nontransport dept. We have a County run EMS service which my wife works for. I am a Industrial Fire Officer at a major steel producer in NW Indiana.