Are you really part of EMS???

[THUMPER1156]

Jeeze, Thump... cut back on the caffeine. :shock:

You just cut loose with a seven-sentence stream of consciousness, and only the first two of those sentences had anything to do with each other. The rest, I assume, you have been waiting forty-years to get off your chest, cuz they really didn't have anything to do with anything we are discussing.

Are you okay? Is there something you want to discuss? :?

Just venting like everyone else dust :sign5:

I might be off subject but I'm tired of these ******* contest (so to speak)

No one in this field should be persecuted for what direction they have chosen.

All though there are alot of ''card carriers'' out there ( for those who don't understand the term -emts that hold the card for show & never even volunteer let alone work for an agency .While I'm on the subject The only beef I have with vollies (besides the wacker lights & wearing of numerous pagers even out of the squad) is if your on a volunteer squad . Do just that , don't belong to one to have fire/rescue access (equip. etc.) .Do it because you want to help people. If every vollie(or any emt) would answer just one call each , there wouldn't be such a thing as missed calls..........now dust

I'm done for now........

[Dustdevil]

As usual, some people seem determined to make this an EMT vs. Medic and volly vs. paid argument, even though neither are even remotely relevant to this discussion. :roll:

To keep things on track, the below link is to a news story that is about exactly what we are talking about:

EMS Accident Claims Two Lives in Detroit

Say what? :shock: A private wheelchair van gets in a wreck, and it's an "EMS Accident"??

John_boston, good post with some great points. I just don't see how it relates to anything we are talking about.

I think you have an unfortunate tendency to dismiss most EMTs as "wankers" who have "pathetic lives" because of the very real problems that plague the varied educational requirements and duties in all of the different systems in the US and around the world. Obviously there needs to be a hell of a lot more education required of people who wish to work in EMS. This has been discussed endlessly here and elsewhere.

And the statistics have an unfortunate tendency to back me up on that. But yes, it is much more of a systemic problem than a problem of individuals. The system, as it currently exists, not only attracts wankers, but it encourages them and rewards them for being wankers. The system, as it currently exists, neither attracts, encourages, nor rewards serious, mature, intelligent medical professionals. Do the math. It adds up to the majority of the EMTs today being wankers.

Obviously there needs to be a hell of a lot more education required of people who wish to work in EMS. This has been discussed endlessly here and elsewhere. Obviously there are a lot of deluded and ignorant EMTs who love to blather about how vital and important they think they are. Why does this need to be emphasized endlessly at the expense of people like me who happen to be EMTs but who have a proper perspective and ambitious goals (I'm planning to be an ER nurse).

The good thing about our current situation is, when wankers are the norm, it makes it really easy to stand above the crowd as an exceptional provider. Sounds like you may be the type to do that. But to do so, first you have to convince yourself that you are not one of them. You are not guilty by association. Just because the system sucks, and ninety percent of the people you work with suck, does not mean you have to suck. And it does not mean that you have to let the suckage of others drag you down. If you are suffering any "expense" because losers are being criticised, then you are either admitting that you too are a loser, or else you're just dangerously hypersensitive.

So then, why do you take personal offence when I dismiss the wankers if this does not apply to you? If I say that French Poodles suck, should German Shepherds everywhere get all pissed off about me being anti-dog? You're drawing false conclusions here for some reason. I wasn't talking about you. If you have a self-esteem problem that causes you to internalise every negative thing you hear about other people, that's not my problem. I am disappointed that you would take offence to anything I say about wankers, but if you truly are not one of them, I'm not going to apologise for offending you when that is simply not my fault.

Trust me, I take your point and you've obviously got loads of experience and I'm sure are a hell of an asset where ever you work. It's just such a shame your attitude is so rotten and condescending nearly all of the time.

So what is our alternative? Do we sit around with our heads in the sand, tell everybody "I'm okay - you're okay," and pretend that the current state of EMS is wonderful, and will continue to get better if we just all hold hands and sing Kum By Yah? Do we just accept that the system sucks, and focus our energy on understanding the delicate feelings of those providers who also suck, because after all, it's not really their fault they suck? John, the first step to solving a problem is to identify that problem. If we continue to ignore the problem in a misguided attempt to spare their feelings, we are enabling the problem. If you enable the problem, you are the problem. And that, my friend, detracts from your professionalism, no matter how proper you think your perspective is.

...if I can comfort a terminal cancer patient by holding her hand or getting her a pillow then I feel like my job is more meaningful and rewarding than serving fries. What's so awful about that? Why does that deserve berating condescension from people who have more education and experience?

Again, you are arguing a point that nobody ever made in the first place. Neither I, nor anybody else in this thread, has said that non-emergency transport work is worthless, useless, sub-human, lesser educated, or anything else derogatory. It is a critically vital service to our society, and God bless those who do it well. I suspect that it won't be too many years before those guys are carting my decrepit arse back and forth from the nursing home, and I truly hope that the crews are staffed by guys like you. Well, you and a hott chick, that is. But, I digress. The point remains that non-emergency-response, non-medical (medical not meaning bedpans or first aid) transport ambulances are not EMS. Period. I don't care if your employer requires you to be an EMT or a Paramedic, or an MD. Your job is not EMS. The patch does not make you EMS. The lights and siren do not make you EMS. All the medical knowledge in the world does not make you EMS if you are not primarily employed by an EMS system to provide emergency scene response care to the public. I really don't know how to make this point any clearer. And really, it's not worth the effort because it is so simple, that the only people who do not understand it are those who simply refuse to admit it.

Sure, transports aren't exciting. Sure, I plan on getting a lot more education and experience so I can actually help critical patients. But for now I'm not going to be another one of those guys who feels the need to sh*t on the reputation of EMS workers (many of whom aren't complete idiots with no medical knowledge).

Multiple problems with this statement. First of all, nobody here is shitting on anybody. We're just defining what words mean. EMS means EMS, not everybody with a stretcher and red lights. You knew that when you took the job. If you don't feel good about yourself because you aren't EMS, then become EMS. You're just as qualified and entitled to it as the next EMT. Again, this isn't about you. It's not about anybody. It's about the system and the terms that define that system.

Second, if somebody in EMS needs their reputation shat upon, they usually do it quite well all by themselves without our help. Ever notice what happens when somebody who doesn't know wtf they are talking about comes here mouthing off about all their awesomeness? Nobody has to shit on them. Nobody has to even explain to the group what is wrong with that person. It is self evident to the professionals. His reputation was shit before we started laughing at him.

Third, if you are not willing to call a spade a spade, then you are enabling spades. If you are not willing to stand up and point out the weak links and dim bulbs in this chain, then you are just as responsible for the failure as they are. From what you tell me, I think you have more professional pride than to just accept suckage in silence. But then again, maybe not. After all, this is just a stepping stone to nursing for you, isn't it? What do you care if EMS sucks for all eternity?

I care. Consequently, I will continue to call them as I see them, and let the chips fall where they may. If somebody is offended by that, they're either hypersensitive, or they're guilty. Either way, I can live with that.

[AnthonyM83]

So what is our alternative? Do we sit around with our heads in the sand, tell everybody "I'm okay - you're okay," and pretend that the current state of EMS is wonderful, and will continue to get better if we just all hold hands and sing Kum By Yah?

As much as I enjoy holding hands (especially in boy-girl-boy-girl setups) and lip syncing, I have to admit that his (and others') attitude has had an effect, at least on this online community. What a high percentage of the active EMTCity population is interested in being more than just another whacker EMT. There may be an air of arrogance, but not self-importance, rather it's rising above to a higher level for the sake of patient care and improvement of the field and for yourself. And as long as offers to educate are extended (rather than automatic exclusion) with every harshly written post, I'm okay with that.

In a way, it's a weeding out process. The ones who say "hey, I'm more than just an EMS wanker" and set out to prove it to themselves are the ones who are better for the profession anyways, USUALLY. I will admit that people have varying levels of self-esteem and not all were raised to be empowered. I imagine if my mom became an EMT (she said she always wanted to do that when she was younger, but that she's too old now) and came to this site, she might leave feeling bad about her job...THAT'S why I think a bit of hand holding is good. The condescendingness without offering a path is useless. But I think Dust and others usually offer that.

And of course, it's our job to pass that one to our respective systems...

[john_boston]

Say what? :shock: A private wheelchair van gets in a wreck, and it's an "EMS Accident"??

I should acknowledge that I do not believe private non-emergency transports are included under the umbrella of "EMS". They are clearly not. If I gave the impression that I believe that they are, I apologize for not being clear. It's a point with which I am in total agreement with you, Dust.

And the statistics have an unfortunate tendency to back me up on that. But yes, it is much more of a systemic problem than a problem of individuals. The system, as it currently exists, not only attracts wankers, but it encourages them and rewards them for being wankers. The system, as it currently exists, neither attracts, encourages, nor rewards serious, mature, intelligent medical professionals. Do the math. It adds up to the majority of the EMTs today being wankers.

Let me draw an analogy. African Americans are incarcerated in America at an overwhelmingly higher rate than any other ethnicity. If this fact lead me to an assumption that the majority of African Americans are criminals and therefore all African Americans deserve to be regarded and treated as such without regard to their status as individuals capable of making their own choices, any sane person would object. The accusation is a non sequitur, it just doesn't follow. The reason for this is that the issue is complex and as you correct observe about the many problems of EMS in this country, "it is much more of a systemic problem than a problem of individuals." In the case of African Americans and incarceration rates, questions of educational opportunity and access, social dynamics, recent American history and civil rights, and just good ole' fashioned American racism loom large in the discussion. It's a problem of plagued institutions, not bad people. Racism is indefensible because all individuals have integrity and deserve to be treated as such. I know it's a dramatic example but I feel like it's an analogous (albeit in a tenuous way) to this discussion; unskilled, uneducated EMS and private ambulance workers deserve to be treated respectfully as widely-varied individuals with many different goals and capabilities, despite the fact that there are massive systemic problems associated with their job and despite the "whacker"-ish tendency among many of our least qualified. I feel no no need to defend unskilled, incurious, uneducated, macho morons in any field, I just take offense at your tendency to dismiss the lot of us basics as people who seemingly by definition, are idiots because their are barely nonexistent educational requirements to begin working as an EMT.

More later...have to go do a non-emergency transport now.

[Niftymedi911]

I just take offense at your tendency to dismiss the lot of us basics as people who seemingly by definition, are idiots because their are barely nonexistent educational requirements to begin working as an EMT.

It's a generalization, yes. But think outside the bubble. There are roughly 410,000 EMT'S and paramedic's that are certified in America. You take that average further. In FL, there are roughly 25,000 licensed EMT's and Paramedics. That state mandated EMT-B course is a basic 3 month course. Yes, they train you, yes they show you. But think if it takes 7 years for a Med student just to reach residency and hopefully complete to get his doctorate, don't you think EMT's and Medic's, who operate like a "doc in a box" should have more then a 3 month course on how to wrap or splint an injury and give oxygen? Now, there are exceptions to everything and there is no exception here, just as you I took all of my pre req's for medic school while I went to EMT school, so I'm finishing my degree as we speak with my core medic classes. I didn't want to go into EMS with just basic knowledge and try to save the world. And it's those people who just get the course to wear a patch and think they're cool and not take EMS seriously. They'll be burnt out in 5 years and then have a mid-life crisis and then drop out and find something else to do. Don't blame Dust, because you always have 3 fingers pointing back when you point at someone. The people we should be blaming is oursleves because we all get that way when we start. It is just matter of when they decide to grow out of it and become a great provider. And it's those who don't grow up and realize, that Dust is generalizing about. And 99.9% of the time the only classification you normally find that in is EMT-B. Medics are usually headstrong, mature, and understand it's not just lights and sirens with shiny badges. Because they put forth the effort to understand and educate themselves, so when a lady drops in a near syncopal episode and after ABC's do a 12 lead to show elevation in II,III, AvF, they know exactly what to do, what's causing the problem, how can we fix the problem and minimize damage to the myocardium for this patient. If you don't have the knowledge to understand that 90% of the time syncopal episodes are either pump or volume related problems. Then you would be bringing a patient to the ED, who will have ultimately not the same quality of life before hand.

[Dustdevil]

Now, there are exceptions to everything and there is no exception here...

ROFL!

That's beauty!

[Niftymedi911]

I thought you might like that.

[JPINFV]

. But think if it takes 7 years for a Med student just to reach residency

Err, I'm just wondering how you came up with that number. I can see 4 [med school is 4 years], I can see 8 (undergrad plus med school), I can see 5 (med school plus first year of residency [1 year of residency (intern year) is needed to become fully licensed. This is not the same as being board certified, but the intern year can either be a part of the residency or separate), and I can see 9 (undergrad+med school+intern year).

[john_boston]

...I can see 9 (undergrad+med school+intern year).

Not to mention fellowships that are a requirement for most specialties after you finish your three years of residency. Even longer if you want to be a surgeon.

[JPINFV]

^

I was intentionally not including residency because it varies greatly depending on specialty and even program (emergency medicine, for example, can be 3 years or 4 years post grad). I only included the intern year because, to the best of my knowledge, technically a doctor doesn't need to finish a residency to become licensed and practice. They only need to complete a year of residency to be able to take the step 3 exam.