EMT/PCP/EMT-A/Paramedic/ACP whats in a name? [Small Rant]

[mobey]

Well I have been in Alberta now for a few months and i can't wrap my head around why we are still calling ourselves EMT's. I took Primary care paramedic the Intermediate care paramedic in Sask, yet when I mention PCP in AB I get stomped on by PCP's who wear a crest that says EMT-A. Yes Yes I realize the college still licences us as EMT's but dammit that's where it should stop.

Why are the AB EMT's happy to be put-down by having their education belittled by their peers?

This rant stems from the ALS vs BLS procedures by Dust. Dammit I worked hard to get where I am, you cannot tell me some EMT course 10 years ago covered the acid - base balance in respiratory, Sodium - Potassium exchange in cardiology, Neurotransmitters including Synapses, ganglions, and all the patho involved in Neurology, and that is only an example of 3 modules in 13 in the Medical Emergencies portion of my PCP course.

I am a PCP (ICP is not recognized in AB) and that is what I call myself, I am proud to be an advanced provider compared to what they had in this community 10 yrs ago.

Now who's with me

[akroeze]

I completely agree with you! Fortunately that isn't a problem here.

[spenac]

So Cananda's system is not the solution to the problems in the USA.

Well it really looks like worldwide we have to many titles. Lets make a worldwide minimum standard. At most 2 levels.

[bleep]

Well I have been in Alberta now for a few months and i can't wrap my head around why we are still calling ourselves EMT's. I took Primary care paramedic the Intermediate care paramedic in Sask, yet when I mention PCP in AB I get stomped on by PCP's who wear a crest that says EMT-A. Yes Yes I realize the college still licences us as EMT's but dammit that's where it should stop.

Why are the AB EMT's happy to be put-down by having their education belittled by their peers?

This rant stems from the ALS vs BLS procedures by Dust. Dammit I worked hard to get where I am, you cannot tell me some EMT course 10 years ago covered the acid - base balance in respiratory, Sodium - Potassium exchange in cardiology, Neurotransmitters including Synapses, ganglions, and all the patho involved in Neurology, and that is only an example of 3 modules in 13 in the Medical Emergencies portion of my PCP course.

I am a PCP

Uhhhh if it was not the late afternoon I would have a long, clearly written response for you. However, it's late afternoon and I just hit the proverbial wall. So hang with me, this could be less-than-well-written.

Let me just say - if someone is belittling your EMT title vs PCP title... they're backwards. AB hasn't changed to PCP because they see it as a step backwards. The basic requirements for the PCP program (the NOCP) is not as in depth or challenging as the requirements for EMT (AOCP). Note that I said "basic". Some PCP programs go above and beyond those basic requirements. They do not have to, however, and many don't.

As an educator, I can tell you that the EMT program has become progressively more and more difficult each year. We have had EMT-Ps tell us that they don't think they could have passed our EMT program.

You have to understand that the "basic" requirements of a PCP program are inferior to the "basic" requirements of an EMT program. Hence the issues you may face if you call yourself a PCP in Alberta.

Be proud of earning the title EMT (the "A" was abolished a few years ago, another long story)... PCP won't be recognized in AB for an indefinite length of time, ACP has dug in their heels on this one, refusing to lower their competencies to the PCP level. However, since all programs in AB are required to meet (and exceed) the NOCP, all programs are entitled to advertise their programs as EMT/PCP in order to facilitate national reciprocity.

I apologize in advance if this post makes no sense. I've posted on this subject far more eloquently on the paramedicweb... darnit, shoulda cut and paste.

[mobey]

I will try to hunt it down on the paramedicweb, thanks for your responce however....

In changing the EMT program to the new "Revised" program to meet or exceed the NOCP's are you not just saying you have updated an old narrow program to meet or exceed the PCP level??

I took my ACP exam with over 350 students, and I gotta say I didn't see this "superior" education there. In fact we had a Pt. with a pacemaker and I was the only one of the day to point out there were no pacemaker spikes on the NSR ECG.

Even through debates on a few of the questions on the exam the other students got totally lost while talking about fluid shift when utilizing I.V. therapy.

I agree the scope of practice is higher in AB but you cannot tell me the EMT program is superior to other provinces. That said I realize there is a difference in alot of schools in this province but that is no excuse.

A wider scope of practice does not equal superior education!!

I would be more than happy to supply you with some of my Sask PCP literature for comparison if you are not familiar with it. And I would love to see some of Alberta's.

[mobey]

The basic requirements for the PCP program (the NOCP) is not as in depth or challenging as the requirements for EMT (AOCP). Note that I said "basic". Some PCP programs go above and beyond those basic requirements. They do not have to, however, and many don't.

I would love to see an example of this statement.

If AB EMT's have just as extensive knowledge of Ilness, Injury, and A&P as the rest of Canada why would the not want to be called "Paramedics"?

I used to work with a semi-retired Paramedic from Edmonton who was blown away by my knowledge when he asked me if i knew what lasix was one night. He stated to me how happy he is that they are teaching BLS some actual Emergency medical related stuff, noting that his EMT course (Back in the day) was 2 weeks long!!

No wonder they changed the title.

[Dustdevil]

Be proud of earning the title EMT (the "A" was abolished a few years ago, another long story)... PCP won't be recognized in AB for an indefinite length of time, ACP has dug in their heels on this one, refusing to lower their competencies to the PCP level.

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are misunderstanding the point Mobey is making. It's not about lowering your competencies. In fact, it's not about competencies at all. It's about elevating your image with a more professional title. As long as you hang on to that stupid EMT title, you will forever be stuck defending yourselves against those who equate you with American EMTs. And, of course, as long as you choose two completely different title categories for your providers, you deepen the chasm between the two levels, creating conflict in the ranks. You don't see that in ON like you do in AB. That's because OB had the vision to make ALL of their providers medical professionals, instead of just some of them.

[bleep]

In changing the EMT program to the new "Revised" program to meet or exceed the NOCP's are you not just saying you have updated an old narrow program to meet or exceed the PCP level??

As someone who has been part of the development of an EMT program, I can assure you that I am very familiar with many PCP programs. The problem is multi-faceted...a good effort was made to create a national program, but many programs are finding the NOCP lacking, and thus training above and beyond (which is what it sounds like you got at your school).

Hmmm I think it does depend on the student too, of course. You know, you can lead a horse to water...

I have to say, it's my experience that it can be very difficult to compare. I have had Sask PCPs (and indeed PCPs from many other provinces) come and apply to the EMT program (it happens often, really), and only a very small percentage of them even make it past the entrance exams. So... kudos to your education, but don't assume that it's the standard. And vice versa - not all EMT programs are currently meeting the AOCP (and audits from ACP have not been done in a long time), and this is evident by the poor averages being put up on the ACP exams. I've been told that there will be a crackdown on this (schools who don't cover the AOCP and thus have a poor passrate) in the next few months, and it won't be pretty.

When we "revised" our program to meet/exceed the NOCP it simply meant that we had to include a lot of BS competencies that were actually already covered in our EMR courses. So, a lot more paperwork; not more knowledge. The in-depth knowledge that is required to meet the AOCP is far more difficult. If your school went above and beyond just meeting the NOCP, bravo to them. It sounds like they went far more in depth than is REQUIRED. I can assure you that it is not standard to do so.

It has also been publically noted that once ACP required all AB schools to apply for accreditation, most schools changed their cirriculum, as required, to include the NOCP. There are concerns that in doing so, many programs are sacrificing teaching the AOCP in depth to the extent that they were prior to the introduction of the NOCP. This is partially why we have seen a dramatic decrease in the percentages of students passing ACP - which tests ONLY AOCP and not NOCP. Food for thought.

As you may or may not be aware, at the last AGM a motion was made to get rid of the requirement for all AB schools to offer the PCP program and be accredited. The motion was stayed until the next AGM, but it's something to consider. The potential implications of such a move is quite significant.

I completely believe you that your recent EMT exam showed poor knowledge from many students. I can tell you, having received the statistics from that exam, that there are several programs in this province who will have some explaining to do, as less than 50% of their students managed to pass the exam. I have argued this point until I'm blue in the face: there needs to be some accountability from the schools who produce these dismal statistics. According to ACP, that accountability will be coming in 2008 and it will be heavy-handed.

Are you on Facebook? On the Calgary EMS group (which may now be closed to the public, actually), there was a very lively discussion on the whole PCP/EMT debate. A lot of EMT-Ps believe that the PCP title is misleading. I also find that many Paramedics in AB find it very offensive to have someone who has as little as 6 months of education calling themselves a Paramedic, compared to the 2-3 years they spent earning the title. It may seem petty to some, but I can see their point.

You ask "If AB EMT's have just as extensive knowledge of Ilness, Injury, and A&P as the rest of Canada why would the not want to be called "Paramedics"?"

That's because, in many cases, it is believed that their knowledge is superior to 'the rest of Canada' (not specifically, but the general PCP standard), and thus calling themselves PCPs is actually a step back. Don't shoot the messenger, by the way, these are not my opinions, but the explanations and information I've been provided over the last 5 years as these changes have been occurring.

One Paramedic (that's EMT-P) once told me that to him, having a PCP called a "Paramedic" is the same as someone with a certificate or diploma calling themselves a PhD.

Dust - I agree with your general assessment, but I don't think that the title EMT causes anyone to compare it with the American title of same. I have never, ever heard of that being a problem, except perhaps on a forum like this - luckily, in this situation it can be easily cleared up by a simple explanation.

Geez can I have my coffee now?

Long story short (too late), get used to the EMT title, it won't be changing anytime soon. And be careful about calling yourself a "paramedic" around EMT-Ps in AB, you won't make any friends that way, whether you agree with their reasoning or not.

[bleep]

In changing the EMT program to the new "Revised" program to meet or exceed the NOCP's are you not just saying you have updated an old narrow program to meet or exceed the PCP level??

As someone who has been part of the development of an EMT program, I can assure you that I am very familiar with many PCP programs. The problem is multi-faceted, and unfortunately, despite the attempt to set a national standard, the discrepencies between PCP programs is quite extreme.

Hmmm I think it does depend on the student too, of course. You know, you can lead a horse to water...

I have to say, it's my experience that it can be very difficult to compare. I have had Sask PCPs (and indeed PCPs from many other provinces) come and apply to the EMT program (it happens often, really), and only a very small percentage of them even make it past the entrance exams. So... kudos to your education, but don't assume that it's the standard. And vice versa - I will clearly tell you that there are schools that are NOT meeting the AOCP currently... and the students from those schools rarely pass ACP either. I've been told this problem will be "taken care of" in the next few months...

When we "revised" our program to meet/exceed the NOCP it simply meant that we had to include a lot of BS competencies that were actually already covered in our EMR courses. So, a lot more paperwork; in no way more knowledge. The in-depth knowledge that is required to meet the AOCP is far more difficult. If your school went above and beyond to meet the NOCP, bravo to them. I can assure you that it is not standard to do so.

It has also been publically noted that once ACP required all AB schools to apply for accreditation, most schools changed their cirriculum, as required, to include the NOCP. There are concerns that in doing so, many programs are sacrificing teaching the AOCP in depth to the extent that they were prior to the introduction of the NOCP. This is partially why we have seen a dramatic decrease in the percentages of students passing ACP - which tests ONLY AOCP and not NOCP. Food for thought.

As you may or may not be aware, at the last AGM a motion was made to get rid of the requirement for all AB schools to offer the PCP program. The motion was stayed until the next AGM, but it's something to consider.

I completely believe you that your recent EMT exam showed poor knowledge from many students. I can tell you, having received the statistics from that exam, that there are several programs in this province who will have some explaining to do, as less than 50% of their students managed to pass the exam. I have argued this point until I'm blue in the face, that there needs to be some accountability from the schools who produce these dismal statistics. According to ACP, that accountability will be coming in 2008 and it won't be pretty.

Are you on Facebook? On the Calgary EMS group (which may now be closed to the public, actually), there was a very lively discussion on the whole PCP/EMT debate. I personally believe that the PCP title is misleading. I also find that most Paramedics in AB find it very offensive to have someone who has as little as 6 months of education calling themselves a Paramedic, compared to the 2-3 years they spent earning the title. It may seem petty to some, but I can see their point.

You ask "If AB EMT's have just as extensive knowledge of Ilness, Injury, and A&P as the rest of Canada why would the not want to be called "Paramedics"?"

That's because, in many cases, it is believed that their knowledge is superior to 'the rest of Canada' (not specifically, but the general PCP standard), and thus calling themselves PCPs is actually a step back. Don't shoot the messenger, by the way, these are not my opinions, but the explanations I've been provided over the last 5 years as these changes have been occurring.

One Paramedic (that's EMT-P) once told me that to him, having a PCP called a "Paramedic" is the same as someone with a certificate or diploma calling themselves a PhD.

Dust - I agree with your general assessment, but I don't think that the title EMT causes anyone to compare it with the American title of same. I have never, ever heard of that being a problem, except perhaps on a forum like this - luckily, in this situation it can be easily cleared up by a simple explanation.

Geez can I have my coffee now?

Long story short (too late), get used to the EMT title, it won't be changing anytime soon. And be careful about calling yourself a "paramedic" around EMT-Ps, you won't make any friends that way, whether you agree with their reasoning or not.

[mobey]

Quote Bleep That's because, in many cases, it is believed that their knowledge is superior to 'the rest of Canada' (not specifically, but the general PCP standard), and thus calling themselves PCPs is actually a step back. Don't shoot the messenger, by the way, these are not my opinions, but the explanations I've been provided over the last 5 years as these changes have been occurring.

Soo what is the answer.

If the EMT's today are far superior to the EMT's of yesterday, heck even (some) superior to the PCP's what do we call them?? Seems rediculous to keep calling them EMT's right? they are far better than that.

I know when I think EMT I think of someone running into the house, slapping on O2, Calling ALS and driving like hell to the hospital, saying things like "scoop and scoot", "because that's what I was taught", and "EMT's save Paramedics".

Not the way I want to be portrayed!!