A SWAT Team instead of an RMA

[kalipay]

I've been a member here for a while, but haven't been on in over a year. I came over here specifically to look for a discussion of this topic... Spenac is doing a great job as far as I can read! =D>

I'd like a little more information though. Another article that I read on this said that a refusal form was offered to the dad to sign. A quote from an affidavit is from this article:

I explained … that per our medical/legal protocols that we would have to contact medical control to get a refusal cleared and that if the ER DR cleared it we would have to have a family member sign the refusal.

Any medics from CO on the site here? Is that true that medical control would have to be contacted to clear a refusal? Usually the pt or a guardian, etc... has to sign the form, check a few boxes, have alot of talking to and the issue is over.

This incident shows how the USA is turning into a vicious "police state". It's scary.

[Dustdevil]

Any medics from CO on the site here? Is that true that medical control would have to be contacted to clear a refusal? Usually the pt or a guardian, etc... has to sign the form, check a few boxes, have alot of talking to and the issue is over.

First, I want to disclose that I am not from CO, nor have I even been there in thirty years. But yes, this has indeed been the professional trend for over twenty years. Your better, more professional systems mostly have this procedure in place, requiring that a medic contact medical control for a patient refusal. However, it appears that you may be completely understanding the procedure and it's purpose.

Medical Control mediated RMAs are not an attempt to force care and transportation onto people. The patient is not bound by the physicians ruling, only the paramedic is. And, unfortunately, it has become a necessity because of the large number of stupid, lazy, and poorly educated paramedics practising in this country, who aren't capable of competently determining who does and does not require care and transportation without killing them. There's another case in the news almost daily of medics no-riding somebody who later dies because they were much worse off than the medic thought. Consequently, we all suffer. To help prevent people from dying because U.S. EMS sucks arse, we have to play "mother, may I" everytime we make human contact and do not transport, regardless of who it is refusing the transportation, them or us. Until education and quality control raise to professional levels in the U.S., this is the safest way to go. And it does not in any way represent an oppression of our patients. It does not give us any authority or duty to kidnap people and transport them against their will. It just keeps lazy, stupid medics from no-riding sick patients so that they can get back to their recliner chair at the fire hall.

[Inf]

"Vietnam paramedic" doesn't mean anything. If social workers got the judge to get a warrant after seeing a 'huge hematoma and a blown pupil' then the raid was justified, and the media portraing this story as an '11 year old son kidnapped by swat team' is the real problem.

[Doczilla]

The tactical problem here:

1) Observed injury to child, possibly serious. More detailed medical assessment refused. EMS unable to tell if the injury was inflicted or occurred as a result of neglect.

2) Father makes threats of harm against those who would come to evaluate said child.

3) Father is ex-military, known to be armed, possibly trained in use of firearms.

I wouldn't send regular street cops to that. That's a SWAT response.

On another note, this father is an idiot. He was a medic in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive? Good thing for him medical care hasn't changed in 40 freakin' years. And that the typical army medic spends so much time with pediatric training. :roll:

'zilla

[zippyRN]

The tactical problem here:

1) Observed injury to child, possibly serious. More detailed medical assessment refused. EMS unable to tell if the injury was inflicted or occurred as a result of neglect.

2) Father makes threats of harm against those who would come to evaluate said child.

3) Father is ex-military, known to be armed, possibly trained in use of firearms.

I wouldn't send regular street cops to that. That's a SWAT response.

On another note, this father is an idiot. He was a medic in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive? Good thing for him medical care hasn't changed in 40 freakin' years. And that the typical army medic spends so much time with pediatric training. :roll:

'zilla

i'm with the Doc on this ... ( as i said earlier)

[p3medic]

From Spenac:

This provider broke the law by forces his way into the house to check on a child w/o parental consent and should go to jail.

[unknown]

BRAVO SPENAC!

Stand your ground. We in America are being de-sensitized and brain washed by the system. Leave us alone and allow us to raise our children. If the father and mother did (as the articles stated) the necessary means to evaluate the son and if then they felt he was fine- then leave him be. Let him go. Don’t try to twist arms and bully a family. As for the father refusing to sign the release form- Kudos to him. He didn’t call the EMS’ I wouldn’t sign it either! As a mother of 3 children, whom I have raised on my own (their father drove a truck the entire 12 years we where married) I will be the first to tell you if it was me in this situation, there would be HECK to pay for any one interfering. My children are MY blessing and they are intrusted to me to raise. So allow me to do it. They are MY flesh and blood, I will care for them. NO one will interfere or try to tell me what I can or can not do. This family in the article should be allowed the same stance. It was wrong for the Paramedics, Law Enforcment and Family Services to interfere.

I have been on the other hand of the Law where my children are concerned, I know how this father feels. I have a child with special needs. She has a behavioral disorder. Diagnosed by medical professionals at the age of 3, she has received treatment and counseling. I, as a parent, have taken classes to learn how to care for her; and received counseling of my own.

To the out side world, to the G.P. MY life and that of my childs is none of your business and when a nosey neighbor feels she should call family services because she doesn’t agree with my way of handling my child; IN her face when the Sheriffs department visited her and outlined the fact that I could press charges for harassment should she call on me again. (after family services and law enforcment did a through investigation it was clear for the 6 time nothing was amis at my house)

We have laws that protect our privacy and our rights as parents and the public should honor that. In the end we as parents will win if we stand our ground but all that is going to happen is much like these articles. It gets ugly, messy, names get drug through the mud and the press goes crazy. People debate, throw their weight around and think they know what is best. In the end, bottom line, WHO is the parent and was that childs welfare at risk? OR did we waste valuable TAX DOLLARS—YES YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY, on government resources to pacify a nosey busy body neighbor who thinks they know what is best for a child who is not there own.

What happened to this family is a shame. A pure shame and is the result of a bully system.

As a child who lost her mother to domestic violence and was raised at the hands of a mentally abusive and emotionally neglecting step mother; I will stand strong and say the system is OVER BOARD to the wrong direction tying to make up for years of ignorance and oversight. It seems to me the children that truly need help are not getting it and the ones that are not in harm are the ones getting pursued.

I have my own opinions and views on that but lets save it for another day….my rant is long enough aleady!

[spenac]

BRAVO SPENAC!

As for the father refusing to sign the release form- Kudos to him. He didn’t call the EMS’ I wouldn’t sign it either! I have my own opinions and views on that but lets save it for another day….my rant is long enough aleady!

Besides the reasons you mentioned another reason not to sign since he did not call EMS is so he is not responsible to pay. Many services charge you even if they do not transport. Why should this family have to pay for an idiots mistake. I hope they end up owning the first responder, his service, cps, the police, the city, etc.

I am all for protecting children but responsible parents should not be harassed and children should not have unwanted and unneeded care forced on them.

[unknown]

Besides the reasons you mentioned another reason not to sign since he did not call EMS is so he is not responsible to pay. Many services charge you even if they do not transport. Why should this family have to pay for an idiots mistake. I hope they end up owning the first responder, his service, cps, the police, the city, etc.

I am all for protecting children but responsible parents should not be harassed and children should not have unwanted and unneeded care forced on them.

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

I COULDN'T SAY IT BETTER MY SELF IF I HAD TO.

[Richard B the EMT]

Speaking of which, anyone remember this international case, of Cuban raft surviver Elian Gonzales, no matter which side of the issue you might have been?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/cubanboy/elian1.html