Jehovah's Witness Interference with Pediatric Care

[ccmedoc]

"Primum non nocere"........or is it ...Do the least harm possible?

Civilized society simply must intervene when parents are making decisions that are clearly not in a child's best interest.

I would think that a civilized society would respect the beliefs of different cultures and religions. How is it civilized to impose ones will on others. In some instances this is seen as tyranny, but here it is seen as a civilized societies mandate???...

I believe that it is morally reprehensible to demand that a person or persons relinquish their beliefs when the only harm done is to themselves or someone in their family. It is only when the act begins to affect society as a whole, most often negative effects, that preparations must be made to take action.IMHO..

Is it worse to let the family unit survive with their beliefs intact, or save the child with taboo procedures, and have the child, and most likely the family as a whole, looked poorly upon in their circle, or ostracized all together? To be shunned by the faith is not unheard of. It simply is not our choice to make for the most part. We are to provide the best care possible as a medical professional; medical, emotional, and to their beliefs. This regardless of our own beliefs.

I have also been in a situation where a court order was had to administer blood to two children of this faith against parent consent. As it would happen, one survived, the other didn't. The parents did not return for 2 weeks. This child was not looked on with the previous reverence, and I doubt life was the same for the family, irregardless of the other loss. They were prepared to lose two children, and indeed they did. The additional hardship forced upon this family, and their community as a whole was something to behold. I am not sure how to describe how strongly the satff still believes, myself included, that the wrong decision was made by the physicians in this instance.

We have been referred to webpages such as this in our parctice..there are more current hanges in the blood policy, but is is on a community by community basis

http://www.ajwrb.org/basics/change.shtml

[WelshMedic]

Surely it is society's duty to protect it's vulnerable. This is a form of neglect that has been given a veneer of respectability because it is the teaching of a particular religion. If a child was denied food or drink then I'm sure everyone would be up in arms about it. I don't see this as being any different.

As far as a child being treated differently after transfusion is concerned, that just shows how misguided some religious fanatics can be. I would rather see a child fostered in a loving home than let it die because of some misguided interepretation of the bible.

WM

[vs-eh?]

ccmedoc,

We're talking about children here, not adults. We're talking about what adults believe is right or wrong based on interpretations of supernatural religious faith, not fact or general secular consensus. A child does not have the mental capacity to contemplate, weigh evidence, and make decisions on some of the deepest questions that we as humans are able to contemplate. There are no "children of this faith" (whatever that faith maybe), they are children of their parents faith.

So you respect beliefs of different cultures and religions carte blache? Or do you "respect" them on a superficial level, but on a real biological and secular level see the wrongs on certain aspects of their culture or belief system. I'm sure you think the latter (or hope). I sure you don't think that all aspects and deeds carried out in the name of "culture" or "religion" today are to be "respected". There are core of biological altruism that hold true for every (intellectually stable) human being.

People go on and on about how their faith or religion is personal. That what they believe guides them in their life, on their personal journey (JW's don't actively impose their faith on people right...kidding). In cases such as this (and in countless others) you are imposing your belief system that is based on such supernatural subjectivity, none of which has an ounce of fact or truth, on the life and mind of a child.

[p3medic]

I like my steak nice and bloody, the no blood thing would definately cramp my style.

[spenac]

I guess I am going to make myself a liar now because I am making one more post on this topic.

First the children that are illegally removed from their parents and given a transfusion are still accepted back with love. We do not abandon our children. We treat them no differently it was not their fault that they were kidnapped. Again false bullcrap. All I asked is that people not throw out uneducated unsupported rumors.

Captain in my experience those that we get to hospital and doc says need blood now or they will die die even after the blood transfusion just as often as those that refuse blood but still receive appropriate care.

Brent I already gave the brief answer to your question in my reply to Ruff, please refer to it.

Dust the aids deal was never used by us as proof of Gods favor on our understanding and punishment for those that don't obey. If a JW (Jehovahs Witness) told you that that was their understanding. Also if you dated a JW they were not strong in the faith as we do not date people not of our faith. Wow Dust I expected strong opinion but at least a little more educated response. Not one based on very limited exposure to witnesses and still based on rumors. Honestly JW's are hard to shut up if you are polite and not trying to argue. We are not going to argue. Just like we see here on the city that when people are rude and argumentive things go down hill. That is when we walk away.

As to the blood issue as it is a matter of faith it is not an subject that is easy to explain. The only explanation I need is it is God's law. I can read it with my own two eyes yet you mock what is there in black and white. God does not have to give me an explanation, he created all things. You can call that stupidity uneducated etc your choice. I choose to follow the bible as God's word you are free to choose what you want to do but don't lower yourself to belittling what you do not agree with.

As to medical benefits yes medical benefits have been discussed from avoiding transfusions and those benefits are found in many medical journals not just ours.

We do not reject the transfusion because of medical risks we reject them because of God's law.

There is only one other medical procedure we do not accept, and I don't consider it medical I consider it murder, and that is abortion. All other procedures and treatments are up to each person.

For more information please refer to the links provided.

Well have a great day. Please avoid rumors. To avoid being a liar again I will say that I do not plan to respond again on this topic. Not because I am "locking up" as Dust put it but because this is a discussion better had in person, in a calm polite atmosphere not one that has already developed a mob mentality.

[Eydawn]

Hey, to each his own faith. And yes, yet again, it is the right of the parent to raise the child in whatever faith they practice. It's up to the parent to listen to what the Higher Power is telling them, to decide how and when and what to teach their children. It's up to the kid to choose for themselves when they have the mental ability to do so.

And believe it or not... I've met 9 year olds that could clearly articulate their faith, why they believed it, and what it meant to them. Surprise! It happens...

Hell, I belong to the religion that thinks crackers and wine turn into Jesus Himself... (I actually prefer the Episcopalian thought on it, that Jesus is present spiritually but the cracker is still a cracker... but it doesn't really make that much difference in the end!)

There's weirder things to believe than abstaining from blood transfusions. You could, for example, refuse any and all medical care... now there's a weird one. Or you could believe that women need to have their clitoris excised in order to satisfy some requirement... or that your ancestors influence your career path and if you piss them off, you're in huge trouble... or that the arrangement of your room dictates the path your life will take... (no offense to those mentioned, they're just the ones that strike ME as weird!)

While we're on the subject of respecting others' beliefs, if you were to go to Africa or Asia, where many believe ills are caused by spiritual maladies, would you deny them a spiritual practitioner to help heal them? Would you insist on forcing antibiotics on them? I certainly wouldn't... I'd try to work WITH their belief system as much as possible. You get a lot further by explaining how you see it, listening to how they see it, and heading for the middle ground. Forcing your methods on someone is just going to create friction, and perhaps make them want to have nothing to do with you.

Spenac, PM me wouldja? (So's I don't make you liar) I was under the impression that JW could have organ donations... true or not true?

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[spenac]

Spenac, PM me wouldja? (So's I don't make you liar) I was under the impression that JW could have organ donations... true or not true?

Wendy

CO EMT-B

Wendy,

I'll risk being a liar to say thanks.

Thank you for a respectful answer. Organ donations/transplants are a matter for each member to decide. Some JW's will say yes, some will say no.

[Connie31079]

spenac:

For those JW's who choose to accept organ donations, doesn't that completely contradict the whole "no blood" issue? I've never heard of anyone getting an organ transplant without receiving blood during the process.

Just wondering......not meant as a slight or anything.

[Dustdevil]

For those JW's who choose to accept organ donations, doesn't that completely contradict the whole "no blood" issue? I've never heard of anyone getting an organ transplant without receiving blood during the process.

I don't think there are any transplant surgeons who would even attempt it without blood transfusions. Too risky. The patient dies, and it looks bad for them. Can't blame them.

As for the contradiction in their beliefs, this reminds me of something from grade 9. Yo Yos were all the rage then, and I had one attached to my hand 24/7, just like every other boy in the school. One day, the teacher told me I couldn't play with the yo yo "in the classroom". Being the little smartass I was (am?), I decided to parse his words literally, and rationalise that it was okay if I sat by the open window and continued to play with the yo yo with my arm hanging outside the classroom. Now technically speaking, I was right. I wasn't playing with the yo yo "in the classroom". But, as you might guess, that didn't fly with the teacher, who sent me to the principal for a whipping.

There is the letter of the law, and there is the spirit of the law. Despite what the media would have you believe, technicalities do not always win you a not-guilty verdict. I broke the spirit of the law, so I was wrong. I believe the same thing applies to JWs who opt for organ transplants. While they may technically skirt the letter of the law, they are still violating the spirit of the law, and God knows that.

[spenac]

spenac:

For those JW's who choose to accept organ donations, doesn't that completely contradict the whole "no blood" issue? I've never heard of anyone getting an organ transplant without receiving blood during the process.

Just wondering......not meant as a slight or anything.

Thank you for you polite response.

Actually many bloodless surgerys including heart are done worldwide. The videos at those links discusses many procedures that are now done worldwide w/o blood products being used. There are many new techniques that were developed that now are being recognized as much better by the medical community. I am no doctor so please don't ask me to explain the processes.

Here is a link to one hospital listing some of the many bloodless procedures they offer. It even mentions heart transplant. This is not a JW site for any that are afraid to click the links to watchtower.org.

http://www.noblood-miami.com/english/specialties.htm

and another link to another hospital not a JW site

http://www.theuniversityhospital.com/blood...loodlesssvc.htm

Google bloodless hospital or bloodless surgery and you will find many of the finest hospitals are now offering these services.