Jehovah's Witness Interference with Pediatric Care

[Kaisu]

what a great and stimulating topic. Just when I think I know what I think, you guys get me going. Who was it who said that a conclusion is something you come to when you are tired of thinking?

I don't believe that God gives simplistic answers to complex issues. This whole issue of what the bible really means is a valid one. Whether it's upbringing, or personal inclination, life experiences, etc. something brings us to our own understanding of the universe and our place in it. Our world view, as well as our practice of the divine is one of the things that makes us uniquely human. We all have some kind of "religion", some encoded in doctrine and organized churches, others not. We are meant to struggle with these issues. We are designed to balance the needs of the child with the needs of the community. I value the strength of commitment that JWs generally display, but I disagree with what I believe is faulty scholarship and indoctrinational isolation. That not withstanding, my place of regular worship has demonstrated errors in doctrine that will be extremely challenging to address. The key is that these doctrinal errors be corrected. The study of the bible without an understanding of languages, cultures, historical development, etc. along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will produce erroneous conclusions.

The bottom line for me is the preservation of life and you bet, I will do everything in my power to convince the parents of a child to allow standard of care - BUT I am not God and if I fail, then it was not my call.

Thanks for the great discussion

[unknown]

what a great and stimulating topic. Just when I think I know what I think, you guys get me going. Who was it who said that a conclusion is something you come to when you are tired of thinking?

I don't believe that God gives simplistic answers to complex issues. This whole issue of what the bible really means is a valid one. Whether it's upbringing, or personal inclination, life experiences, etc. something brings us to our own understanding of the universe and our place in it. Our world view, as well as our practice of the divine is one of the things that makes us uniquely human. We all have some kind of "religion", some encoded in doctrine and organized churches, others not. We are meant to struggle with these issues. We are designed to balance the needs of the child with the needs of the community. I value the strength of commitment that JWs generally display, but I disagree with what I believe is faulty scholarship and indoctrinational isolation. That not withstanding, my place of regular worship has demonstrated errors in doctrine that will be extremely challenging to address. The key is that these doctrinal errors be corrected. The study of the bible without an understanding of languages, cultures, historical development, etc. along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will produce erroneous conclusions.

The bottom line for me is the preservation of life and you bet, I will do everything in my power to convince the parents of a child to allow standard of care - BUT I am not God and if I fail, then it was not my call. Thanks for the great discussion

I APPLAUD YOU MADAME FOR A VERY ELEGANT RESPONSE

[captainstandup]

From a societal perspective the "holy spirit" is not a static entity, its variable based on a myriad of different faith's and cultures. Its virtually impossible to write laws that protect personal choice and religious freedom without by default offering sanctuary to criminals and psychos or abandoning the young and those mentally or physically incapable of articulating their desires from an informed perspective.

It seems "interesting" that life and death decisions are being made on what is by many accounts an incomplete book. In 1885 the Archbishop of Canterbury recognized only 66 of the 73 books as valid. This is what is now referred to as teh "King James Version" of the Bible. What if the remaining instructions for life were in the missing chapters? Point is; human decisions are based on either emotion, money, power, sex or a combination thereof. These are the reasons we need consistent laws that protect those who cannot protect themselves.

[Kaisu]

I have learned that the psychos, criminals and depraved will do whatever they want to regardless of the laws. A lot of women die and suffer at the hands of men who cannot be arrested for what they intend to do. We are not talking about psychos, criminals and the depraved. We are talking about parents who without a doubt (for the most part) love their children.

[Dustdevil]

I APPLAUD YOU MADAME FOR A VERY ELEGANT RESPONSE

Ditto.

In 1885 the Archbishop of Canterbury recognized only 66 of the 73 books as valid. This is what is now referred to as teh "King James Version" of the Bible.

It's pretty amazing that there were seven books that they found to be even more incredibly unbelievable than the other sixty-six.

[captainstandup]

I was trying further my earlier point that the rule of law is all we have to protect the weak and young and those who cant protect themselves from harm, be it at the hands of their "loving" zealot parents or by a criminal. Protection from harm is the issue and it must be evenly distributed to all members of a society before all other emotional / religious considerations.

If we simply discount what is in my opinion criminal neglect by the JW's for refusing to allow every conceivable therapy possible to save a Childs life then why should drug abusers that allow children to be filthy and undernourished be charged. They cant help it, right! Perhaps they are simply trying to achieve enlightenment and get closer to God thorough use of mind altering substances.

Many in the public scream like a little girl at the prospect of a child being punished by spanking as this is a form of torture. A bruise or welt on a child’s legs has DSS and law enforcement sliding sideways into a school parking lot. How is this possible as the bible clearly says spare the rod spoil the child?

If that same child were instead to suffer a ruptured spleen or lacerated liver in a school bus accident and the family deny lifesaving blood to be administered this same school staff wouldn't even conceive of calling DSS or law enforcement as the child lay dying.

Which is more harmful, Corporal punishment, denied lifesaving care or the entire idea of the flawed concept of religious freedom, which has clearly run amuck

[captainstandup]

Ditto.

It's pretty amazing that there were seven books that they found to be even more incredibly unbelievable than the other sixty-six.

You kill me dust! I couldnt stop laughing!!

[Kaisu]

It's pretty amazing that there were seven books that they found to be even more incredibly unbelievable than the other sixty-six.

Just read those sonofaguns sometimes - they'll kill ya

[vs-eh?]

I believe in the Bible, I belive that Christ died for my sins I believe that God gave his only son to die for my sin to be forgiven AND last but not least I belive that I don't have to justify nor explain any of that to you cause of FREE WILL if you so want to go to hell for disbelief well then- go for it. It's your choice.

See this is what I don't really understand. I would hope that most people (regardless of their religious beliefs) see how ridiculously wrong this statement is.

It is obvious that the above poster and spenac have belief systems that generally don't coincide with any type of secular and moderate religious belief.

I should digress on the above quote, but I won't... I'll try to give this arguement point by point, it is easy and I'm not the first, but think about it (oh wait.....you can't)....

1) You believe in God (obviously a Christian and not abstract philosophical God) and obviously all the properties that God encompasses (the "omni" properties)

2) You also believe in the tennants of said faith

3) You also believe in "free will" and what God has granted us

4) You also believe that God (in the Christian sense) is right

5) You believe that other religions (at their core) are incorrect

ergo...

Why would your Christian God (or any religion's God) who is an "omni" God want me (or even allow me) to make a choice (I'm agnostic leaning toward atheist) to disbelieve in it and subsequently "go to hell for disbelief".

Pretty evil God you are following, when their are BILLIONS who don't...and besides, it can do (if it exists) whatever it wants anyway....

When people think about "God" and the "omni" factor, you should see how silly it is...

EDIT - Oh ya, and you shouldn't be bringing your children up in the supernatural religion that you (not them) believe is right. This may come as a shock, but Hell and heaven are not real factual concepts in any sense of the word. Leave them alone, they are children... I hope they become evolutionary biologists that have the same good sense as me...

Peace.

[Just Plain Ruff]

VS I see your point but

It's not your job to tell us what faith to believe in. It is not your place to tell me how to worship.

You have your beliefs and others have theirs so let's leave it at that.

What get's me is how so many people, on this site and elsewhere can try to dictate or force their beliefs down others throats.

I don't try to force my beliefs on others, I give them my viewpoints and then I give them the opportunity to make their own choice.

I have no tolerance for people who try to force their beliefs.

VS, take no offense to what I have just said but the conversation and your posts have struck a chord and I know that we have known each other long enough to disagree and be good pals afterward.

I think if we want to continue this discussion let's take it to PM or IM's and not clog up the thread.