Jehovah's Witness Interference with Pediatric Care

[JPINFV]

I know that, at the very least, VS should know what this picture is.

[Just Plain Ruff]

This is a really good read. Faith is what you make it.

This was a discussion between a professor and a student at a liberal arts college.

It is worth the time to read it.

"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist

professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his

new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible !" He considers for a

moment.

"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you

can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I wo uld."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could.

Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't,

does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he

prayed to Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer

that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water

from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student: "From...God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in

this world?"

"Yes, s ir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created

everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to

the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: "Is

there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things,

do they exist in this world?"

The student: "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his

question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the

lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is

mesmerized.

"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus

Christ, son?"

The student's voice is confident: "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to

identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him"

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your

Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God

for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,

science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. < FONT face=Arial

color=#c00000>"And that is the problem science has with God. There is no

evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his

ow n. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room

suddenly becomes very quiet.

The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more

heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat

or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to

458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further

after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able

to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is

susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what

makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F)

is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word w e use

to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can

measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the

opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence acr oss the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom,

sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it

isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence

of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light,

flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and

it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the

word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make

darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him and says,

"This is going to be a good semester... So what point are you making,

young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to

start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can

you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You

argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad

God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, somethin g

we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses

electricity and magnetism, but has never been seen, much less fully

understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be

ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved

from a monkey?"

"I f you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man,

yes, of course I do"

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes

where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and

cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you

not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a

preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion

has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let

me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the

room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's

brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone here who

has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the profess or's brain,

touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears to have done

so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable,

demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due

respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust

your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his

face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man

answers "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with

life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncert ain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it

everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is

in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These

manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it

does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is

just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the

absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what

happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's

like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that

comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

[Asysin2leads]

:roll: Uh huh. Do I have to take it on faith that a first year philosophy student can "zing" a professor with many years of teaching and studying under his belt? I hate "This is true" stories like that. They insult my intelligence. -10 points and a slap on the knuckles with a ruler.

What the point of this story is, is that both science and religion are both based on faith. Yes, to be a student of science or mathematics you do have to take a leap of faith, and that leap of faith is to believe that because things have happened in a certain pattern in the past they will continue to happen that way in the future. There's nothing to absolutely say that when I knock my glass of Seagram's 7 off the desk that it will fall and make my apartment smell like Britney Spears, we have to believe that the laws we know of gravity, what we have measured and observed, will continue to operate in that fashion.

Oh, and to all you creationists out there in creationism land next man and dinosaurs living side by side like the Flintstones , yes, we have seen evolution with our own eyes. In a lab, under a microscope. The lab is that place where them pointy headed scientists ain't worshippin' Jesus.

Unfortunately, I have always had a sincere lack of faith. I need proof. I need to be shown. I try to imagine what its like to believe, without any proof or evidence, that there is some or any benevolent force looking down upon me, and I just can't. In fact, when I read the newspaper everyday, I am usually convinced otherwise. For my money, if there were such things as guardian angels, I'd be out of a job.

[captainstandup]

I began this thread hoping to learn and as always have spirited discussion. My point is never to offend or be harmful. I have strong beliefs, but an inquisitive mind. It fascinates me that this discussion has lasted as long, and with as many posts as there have been.

I haven't wavered in my belief that allowing the teenage MVA victim (that I described in the original post) to bleed to death, with a proven solution literally feet away, was wrong regardless of which God one worships. I tried to admire the JW's level of commitment to their faith, but alas I have failed on this one too.

In my opinion any faith that sanctions neglect of the young or those mentally or physically incapable of making informed life and death decisions, as demonstration of PARENTAL obedience to their God is in my opinion suspect at best.

What do I do with what I've learned from this thread? The only rational answer I have at this point is to continue being as active as possible in political and legal circles to prevent further occurrences of what happened to my patient.

[Asysin2leads]

Captain, I guess I'm not sure what you're asking. Personally, I put Jehovah's Witnesses practices about life saving procedures right up there with female circumcision, suicide bombings, giving rape victim's lashes, and hanging people because they're witches. I think its barbaric, backwards, and reprehensible, and personally, I hope that all of the people who practice such things in the name of God get a real big surprise where they end up in the afterlife.

On the other hand, I am extremely wary of any government interference in people's health care choices. I would rather err on the side of personal choice than forced treatment.

Parents do stupid things all the time. I know it and you know it. They feed their kids such crap that they develop juvenile diabetes. They drive around at unsafe speeds with them unbuckled, and leave them with people they shouldn't to pursue their own interests, and kids suffer for it, all the time, everyday. You need a license to own a dog but not to have a kid, and as much as it hurts to see children suffer, it is better than the alternative, to have government bureacrats dictating our personal lives. There are people who would make the case that smoking around children is tantamount to child abuse, and I, personally, have had to get into heated arguements with school administrators who want a child hauled off to the ER for psychiatric evaluation because they were acting out. This is what happens when we allow people other than the parents to make decisions for the child.

I can't imagine how hard that was for you, captain, but maybe you can get something out of this. A rabbi once told me that if you let someone's death cause you to get angry, or turn against God, or cause you to hate something, then their death becomes a sacrifice to evil, as if the Devil himself caused their death just so you could lose some faith. So maybe the better way to look at this isn't that this teenager died because their parents were assholes, they died so we could all enjoy the freedom to make the proper health care decisions for our loved ones.

[DirtyBlackSocks]

All humans have faith, the more productive ones; who have the largest impacts on sociecty - have followed their faith and beliefs past what normal people do. Often being ridiculed for whatever it is they believe.

Where people place their faith is their own business, trying to shake some one of their faith out of spite doesn't make you a better person. Trying to understand why a person keeps their faith may help you to become a better person.

It's not right, it's not wrong. It's just different.

[Dustdevil]

It's not right, it's not wrong. It's just different.

Different = bad

Conformity = good

[DirtyBlackSocks]

Different = bad

Conformity = good

By that same token I could argue that Christianity's good because it's a mass population of people conforming to one idea.

I've definitely regained some of my humanity being a civvie for over a year, if I were still on active duty debating this topic I'm sure I'd of had a completely different opinion on the matter.

[JPINFV]

By that same token I could argue that Christianity's good because it's a mass population of people conforming to one idea.

Not really because there is a rather large range of beliefs in the Christian community when you look at the different sects individually.

[Just Plain Ruff]

sorry for posting that long post yesterday. It was not intended to insult anyone's intelligence and if you felt that your intelligence was insulted then I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do about that now.