Improvised "Weapons" for EMS Defense

[DirtyBlackSocks]

As for the guy that said just use a knife here is some food for thought. A knife is not the best SD weapon to begin with. If you have no training in true knife fighting techniques that you're even more at a disadvantage. I say this and I am a collector of decent knives. I usually carry 2 on me at all times. The difference is I know their limitations. One is better than open hand but there are way better things that you don't have to get so in close with. (all mentioned above)

Now think about this. You are carrying a knife in the small of your back. What happens if you fall on your back with it there during your fight?

#1 WHOOPS!!! there goes your idea for SD and you can't get to it because there is some whackjob on top of you trying to kill you.

#2 Hey why can't I feel my legs? Oh yeah thats right you run the risk of a spinal injury too because now you have your bodyweight falling on this area that isn't flat with the rest of your body so all the force of the fall is concentrated there. So now you're even less able to defend yourself.

1. I stated to take a 3 month combatives course as an introduction to how to defend yourself.

2. Some thing is totally wrong if you're on the offensive in the first place in EMS, knives are completely useful both for skull bashing with the tang of the blade and self defense. A person is a lot more likely to think twice about bum rushing you if you're holding some thing in your hand.

3. Since when do folding blades with safety's cause damage from falling on your back? Is everyone in here completely blind to what knife safety means?

Do you really think I'd condone carrying a fixed blade in the small of your back?

Apparently nobody here has any sort of training when it comes to the use of knives and their applications in combat - collector or not - some of what you're saying is contradicted by just plain common sense.

On top of all of this I suggested that the best method of defense is to run the hell away - not play Joe Rambo.

If I were to carry a knife in EMS as a means for defense and utility use I'd choose something like this:

http://www.bestknives.com/gerberauto.html

Which is not only a folding blade (DUH!) but also carries a safety - if it were to come into the hands of an attacker they'd likely have no idea how to engage the blade in the first place. (I've handed this specific knife off to many people to check out and nobody ever figures out how to disengage the safety right off the bat - period.) If you lose a knife like that to an attacker after opening it, with that style of grip - then you shouldn't be carrying a knife.

Some people have the discipline and foresight to take the time and put the effort into learning how to properly defend. Knives are a last resort and used more as a psychological measure then a true defensive measure. As was already stated, running away and learning hand to hand combatives would be a much more effective tool.

Your average Joe isn't going to know what the hell's going on if you're trained in hand to hand combatives. Even a short 3 month course.

[firespec35]

1. I stated to take a 3 month combatives course as an introduction to how to defend yourself.

Glad you started still doesn't do much if you don't have the whole package

2. Some thing is totally wrong if you're on the offensive in the first place in EMS, knives are completely useful both for skull bashing with the tang of the blade and self defense. A person is a lot more likely to think twice about bum rushing you if you're holding some thing in your hand.

Nobody said anything about being on the offensive. And do you really think that the psych that thinks you're the devil or the junkie all strung out that is trying to kill you for your drugs or the random nut who just wants to kill you is really going to care about that blade in your hand.

3. Since when do folding blades with safety's cause damage from falling on your back? Is everyone in here completely blind to what knife safety means?

Evidentally you think I mean it will open and stab you. That's not what I'm saying. It is because flat of the folding knife is a hard object pressed against your spine in an area that is normally recessed if you fall the knife is going to make contact with the ground and your entire body weight smacks against it essentially putting your spine between a rock and a hard place. This is why smart firearm instructors advise against carrying in a true SOB position and most EMS instructors I've had in the last 12 years have advised against carrying shears there.

Do you really think I'd condone carrying a fixed blade in the small of your back?

You condone carrying a folder in SOB carry why not a FB.

Apparently nobody here has any sort of training when it comes to the use of knives and their applications in combat - collector or not - some of what you're saying is contradicted by just plain common sense.

OK Rambo you said you STARTED a 3 month defense course. That doesn't exactly make you a zen master. As for common sense goes. Think about it. You are in EMS think about spinal trauma

If I were to carry a knife in EMS as a means for defense and utility use I'd choose something like this:

http://www.bestknives.com/gerberauto.html

Not a big fan of auto's or Gerber's. Assisted openers are just as quick and more legal than an auto. Most of the major Mfg's except Spyderco have some sort of AO line. Not sure where you are from but in MI Auto's are illegal for anyone except a 1 armed man or PD. I have heard rumors of an exception for Fire and EMS personnell but in my research I cant find it. I know my PD won't mess with me but why chance it.

Which is not only a folding blade (DUH!) but also carries a safety - if it were to come into the hands of an attacker they'd likely have no idea how to engage the blade in the first place. (I've handed this specific knife off to many people to check out and nobody ever figures out how to disengage the safety right off the bat - period.) If you lose a knife like that to an attacker after opening it, with that style of grip - then you shouldn't be carrying a knife.

OK Rambo you don't think bad guys play with knives too?

Some people have the discipline and foresight to take the time and put the effort into learning how to properly defend.

You said you started a course. Evidentally you're not one of them

Knives are a last resort and used more as a psychological measure then a true defensive measure. As was already stated, running away and learning hand to hand combatives would be a much more effective tool.

I'm 6'3 with a 60" chest. I'm a walking psychological deterrent. If they're dumb enough to take me on, the folder I carry isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. Trust me If I can leave I will. As far as H2H. That's a decent idea.

Your average Joe isn't going to know what the hell's going on if you're trained in hand to hand combatives. Even a short 3 month course.

Unless he has more than you.

For everyone else If you like the basis of what DBS thinks just shift the knife a little to one side or the other, for firearms it's called kidney carry.

[DirtyBlackSocks]

Ugh, I'm not going to get into the huge debate over this. I stated in my first comments that I'm well aware not everyone agree's with the notion of carrying a blade in the small of their back.

I've got a lot more then 3 months of combatives training - I was in a Combat Arms MOS with bi-daily training with the United States Army under a program designed with Royce Gracie as the main consultant.

I was stating that a 3 month hand to hand combatives course for your average EMS employee would help a lot with understanding the mechanics of the body and how to apply certain submissions to neutralize a combative patient.

I've been carrying a blade in the small of my back for years. I've been in fights with it there, some of which ended up on the ground. I've never had to use it - don't plan to use it. If you think pulling a knife on a combative drug addict wouldn't make them hesitate I'd have to disagree.

[WANTYNU]

Are you Hillary's campaign manager or what?

You know Cap, when you discuss medicine, you can be inspiring. When you discuss anything else you mostly come off as a dumb redneck.

………

B.F. Skinner, a gazillion years ago talked about the 'Autonomous man theory'. He claimed that "good" people would never allow for the fact the 'nurture' played a part in people being 'bad', thus not completely at fault and for their behavior and therby fixable, because they would then have to admit that they were not completely responsible for being 'good'.

……………

You are the embodiment of the ignorance he was predicting. Read a book. Take a class. Quit looking silly in these discussions.

Well stated Dwayne, bigotry in any form is an ugly thing and is always based on ignorance.

It’s also not a surprise that Joseph Stalin supported almost all of the aforementioned garbage that was posted, and he was a Communist…..

It takes guts to stand up for what is right, funny I was also thinking Nature verses Nurture, but you made the same argument quite eloquently.

Well done.

I figured I’d add a quote from another famous “liberal” that underlines the point.

It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. — Abraham Lincoln.

Be Safe,

WANTYNU

[DwayneEMTP]

Thanks WANTYNU.

But it's mostly time, these most recent posts I mean, spent between us. Like another well know instigator here, Captain will almost certainly not be back to this discussion.

He loves to rant and rave...but doesn't have the gnads to back up these kinds of statements if challenged.

It is refreshing to see that most don't subscribe to the "Let's keep doing what we've always done even though it's been thoroughly proven not to work" ideals. Perhaps there are answers in the future after all.

Dwayne

[captainstandup]

You know Cap, when you discuss medicine, you can be inspiring. When you discuss anything else you mostly come off as a dumb redneck.

You are exactly right I do come across that way sometimes, regardless of how I try not to. It just seems as though everyone seeks to excuse really bad behavior among an ever growing segment of society as not their fault.

The Democrats want to keep everyone dependant upon them for help to justify their existence. Social welfare programs have been an abysmal failure and only seem to enable those who, once dependant on the system, rarely escape.

The Republicans hate everyone for being sick or having mental illnesses. Being unkind, neglectful and blaming the sick for being sick then gaming the system to increase profits isn't helping anyone either.

I told a coworker today that regardless of which party wins there is a 100% chance that America will elect a scumbag for President this time. I have never felt so hopeless regarding political leadership and the future of our country as I do now.

Although this post isn't necessarily on topic I believe the political facet of the greater problem to have been worth discussing here.

Finally, I should have shut up a long time ago in this thread but as I too frequently do; I allowed passion to drag me to a much darker place than necessary, when attempting to make a point. The redneck comment was a bit of a "bitchslap" back to a more sane me and hopefully one that makes more sense. Forgive me in advance if I need one periodically.

I wonder if dustdevil or spenac would consider a bid for the Presidency? I'm sure there is a stool somewhere around the oval office where dust could elevate his injured leg.

[afd1307]

I work in some interesting areas with the high chances for MCI and HAZMAT instances, i.e political events with all presidential candidates in attendance. I often find myself there more as security then ems, but thats a whole nother situation. I think that people in EMS must have a general idea of what they would do in case of a situation when called upon to calm a situation or restrain/fend off someone that is a threat to the general public. Whether this is a first in bag, O2 bottle, trama shears, etc etc I find it important information to have in the back of our minds as a just in case, just like so many other things we keep there, just in case.