and you thought it was bad when BLS was pushing meds...

[john_boston]

[devils advocate] But that's 15 minutes on top of our hour of pharmacology and two hours of anatomy and physiology [using NHTSA/DOT standards].

An hour of pharmacology and two of anatomy and physiology is like taking an hour long guitar lesson when you've never played before and expecting to play like Hendrix.

[Just Plain Ruff]

who resuscitated this horse?

[JPINFV]

An hour of pharmacology and two of anatomy and physiology is like taking an hour long guitar lesson when you've never played before and expecting to play like Hendrix.

Um, that was exactly my point. There was definitely a hint of sarcasm in that post as well as being a devils advocate. Hence quoting the insanely small hour requirement of NHTSA/NREMT.

[AnthonyM83]

Another thing to think about if not already mentioned is that a doctor has prescribed an Epi-Pen to this kid. Older kids carry them around themselves. Teachers don't have the background in pharmacology, but how much background to EMTs really have as it relates to epinephrine? Also, teachers will probably be more hesitant to use it than a whacked out EMT.

But it does bring up the good pint that if teachers can admin it, then EMTs probably should be able to, also

[NREMT-Basic]

Absolutely not. Not in my nation. As an emergency, last ditch effort in a paediatric population, I can almost go for it. As was already mentioned, the worst you are going to do is tach the kid out a bit. But in an adult population, there is way, way, way too much room for catastrophic error by an ambulance driver with one hour of "training" on allergic reactions. It's hard enough for a paramedic or even a physician to tell the difference between a heart attack and anaphylaxis without the benefit of diagnostic tools. And if you go giving epi to an AMI because the signs matched up with your cookbook, you're likely to kill somebody.

No way.

Maybe I am wrong, and Dust will certainly point it out if I am, but I dont remember things like giant hives or swelling of the tongue and lips after eating a granola bar being in list of signs of an MI. But I guess if we didnt make statements like its hard enough for a paramedic or even an physician to tell the difference between an MI and anaphylactic shock then we can continue with the theme established by the title of this thread which is that school teachers can provide better levels of care than EMTs. Im sorry, but I have seen several MIs and several cases of anaphylaxis and have never confused the two. But, we got another chance in a back-handed way to bash Basics, so I guess the thread is a success.

[AnthonyM83]

As far as schools using an Epi-Pen without calling 911. Come on, I worked at an elementary school and you could be pretty sure no one would imagine using the Epi-Pen without calling EMS.

These aren't BLS crews deciding on the need for ALS assistance or not. They're regular people in a real emergencies, teachers looking out for their kids...

At least where I worked, Epi-Pen wasn't something you just gave the student, then went on with your lesson. Epi-Pen Jr. was something you gave when freaking out, having called for help from the office, had half the staff crowding around your classroom, secretary on phone with 911, and the principal on phone with parents, and two teachers walking the other teacher through the Epi-Pen use and holding the child while another takes over your now out of control class trying to see what's going on, etc etc.

[ccmedoc]

As far as schools using an Epi-Pen without calling 911. Come on...

I don't think anyone would question this..if they did I missed it.

The fact that they had the intervention there while 911 was activated was the heart of the discussion as I understood it. To administer the med for a possible emergency and then go on with their day as if nothing happened..not a chance.

This should be a legitimate scope for these uptrained teachers while 911 is activated, in lieu of having medical staff present..i.e. nurses.

[AnthonyM83]

It was brought up that people would be okay with it if 911 was called....my reply is: well DUH.

[ccmedoc]

Yep...

[KAThomas]

The only issues I have with this type of deployment of epi-pens are 1 - are they stored properly ?and 2 - are expired meds disposed of and replaced ?

Its pretty useless to have them if they don't work.

Thank you. I saw a special on how many tons of exp. meds folks have at their homes... the work place would be even worse. Hmmm.