Thanks Fire! For Screwing us over... yet agian.

[akroeze]

How impressive :roll:

Ah, so he disproves something and you roll your eyes at it? Why? Because it hurt your feelings?

[Richard B the EMT]

Im a "yellow helmet" in training and so can understand your passion for doing both and I agree that one person can be good, even excellent at both.

We have a local area phrase that has crossed a state or international line.

Please define what a "yellow helmet" is, and I hope that whatever it means, you successfully complete the training.

Here in NYC, Fire Fighters wear black leather (New Yorker style) helmets, EMS (leastwise those in the FDNY EMS Command) wear an orange plastic fire fighter style helmet. When required, the NYPD wears a "sky-blue" hardhat, or what appears to be a motorcycle helmet of the same color. Supervisors from each agency, while wearing the same style helmet, either have a white front-piece, or the helmet is all white.

FYI, to differentiate between my orange helmet, for on duty, and what I might use when off duty, I also have what was described as an English design helmet, in yellow, with patches on it stating EMT. The girlfriend also has one adjusted to her size, but the patches stuck on it indicate "first responder".

[Lone Star]

On the department I served with, Firefighters wore black helmets, Lieutenants wore red, Captains were yellow, and Battalion Chief, Assistant Chief, Chief were white helmets.

[Ridryder 911]

I have awaited from posting on this. As a former line officer as well as having formal education in Fire Service, I have seen both sides.

Fire Service did not take EMS as a public service. Most have not been in EMS or Fire Service long enough to remember the 80's and even the early 90's, when most did not want participate. It was not until they seen that their statistics was moving towards "downsizing" that EMS was considered something to look into and potentially something to perform.

Fire Service has done their job, maybe too good with fire prevention and building engineering, suppression techniques. Unfortunately, for every one step there is always two more to go forward. It is unreasonable to consider one to wear so many hats and be proficient. Not that some cannot perform multiple tasks, but how many can one acclaim that they can be truly proficient in? Haz-Mat, Suppression, Over-Haul, Prevention, and on and on? Not even a surgeon diversifies.

I have not yet seen addressed is the "white papers " of the Fire Chiefs Association, pronouncing that they want to be in charge not just EMS nationally, but all Emergency Services! A little grandeur, would you not say?

Majority of Fire Services do want EMS to justify budgets for FTE, grants, and yes even re-coup some losses. One of the few services that a public service can actually NOT loose money on. Again, many of the Fire Services just now are realizing.

The problem I have as well with Fire Service EMS; is that many have attempted to justify their existence and remove public or third service EMS to save Fire Fighter jobs. There are even documented well established EMS that was forced out to sustain non-EMS firefighter positions. Some communities going from Paramedic ALS to BLS level, all in the name to save the Fire Department.

With all the new buzz words of "justification" going around, maybe fire service needs to learn them. Justify having so many FTE's, so much equipment (seriously a WMD equipped truck for a community of 5000?). Number of responses, length of responding and education required for such levels.

Sorry, most Fire Departments still hire from the neck down. Even compare entry level tests, one can see many still use the "middle" and not the high end. As well, it does not matter if one has a PhD or Master degree, majority of the Fire Commander (FGC) is still based upon Fire Ground Command Structure, based upon experience, training levels not education based. One may have a FGC with only in-house training and being the "good ole boy" for several years, being promoted with tenure. Not all but very many still perform as such.

I am working with Fire Services to increase our state EMS response. Some has some very good responses and good points, however; I disagree with the "do it our way, or no way" responses. The advantage they have learned is to use the "Hero Syndrome" to their advantage in public sympathetic response, and the law makers are quite aware of this. If you were to ask a Firefighter thier legislatures name, chances are they know them or their Union Rep. has them on speed dial. Ask the same to a EMT and it is doubtful they know what you are talking about. Something, we MUST change within our system. Something, we need to learn off of Firefighters and teachers alike.

Can we work together, yes in some ways. If we look at the end goal... the patient. The problem is the ego's (both sides) tends to get in the way.

R/r 911

[Lone Star]

Interesting perspective Rid!

I have to say this, I don't agree with cutting the EMS slots to preserve the firefighters jobs, just as I don't agree with cutting fire protection to save the police jobs.

Most of the municipalities, if they actually looked at their budgets, could find other areas to cut back with little or no impact on the public safety aspects.

While building codes, (automatic fire suppression devices, such as sprinkler systems) have been put in place, by architects, OSHA, and improved building code requirements,.... the Fire Service has seen little improvement in technique, tools and other technilogical advances in the last 175 years of the history of firefighting. We're still putting 'wet stuff on red stuff'.

Just because some departments use EMS call volume to inflate their 'worth' to the general public, not all departments do that. We have to fight for every dollar we can get in order to provide a certain level of protection to the communities we serve.

The most prevalent thought process I've seen (especially in the bashing threads) is that if one is doing it, then ALL must be. There are exceptions to every rule.

I agree that the end result in this 'area' is patient care. To sit there and try to elevate one service over another as being the 'better provider', (as in that video); is just flat out bullshit!

We're all trained to the same levels within the state, and work within the same protocols in the counties that we serve. In both services, you will have the good, the bad, and the abslolute idiots....we all know this.

The original poster's choice of titles for this thread, leads the browser to think that the fire service lays awake at night looking for ways to stick it to EMS....which isn't true at all....

Sadly Rid, you're right about most of the promotions in the fire service being based not on education, experience and ability, but on the 'good ol' boy network' reccommendations. Thats why after 15 years of service, I hadn't made rank.... I just didn't fit in to their 'network'...

[Don1977]

I have no problem with fire and ems cross training but i do agree with Lone Star, don't cut fire for ems and fire for police........................... don't cut any public service for the other period!

[UMSTUDENT]

I only have to say one thing...

Watch and enjoy.

[triemal04]

Rid this is mostly for you since the thread (on another site) this was from was locked immediately after I posted this...but since it applies here (especially since we've both said the same things here and in another thread) I thought it might be appropriate; some of it doesn't apply, but a fair amount, mostly towards the bottom, does. Anyone else, please contribute as you see fit. Comments in red are mine.

Originally Posted by Ridryder911

What does "get old" is that EMS does not ever get recognition in comparison to other public safety providers. Don't believe me? Check out your local retirement and benefit packages (if you have one). See what would occur if your EMS partner gets creamed by a drunk driver and then to see if it was a firefighter.

Unfortunately that's true all to often; not always but way to much. The answer to it, (as I've said before) is that EMS workers need to get some kind of organization together to start their lobbying and compete with IAFF in their own game.

If the family gets enough to plant the poor medic in the ground they will be lucky, and the firefighter "dust to dust" will be paraded down the road as will the bill be picked by the locals. Both of them were there for the good of others. Just one of them didn't happen to be "one of the chosen". I am glad that firefighters get great benefits but let's share the pie and we'll even let them keep the glory.

Again, not always true; remember not every firefighter that dies gets any type of parade; the funeral is part of our own tradition, if even that happens. But yeah, it should change and hopefully will. See the above for how.

I am fighting the discrimination against medics. Ironically, EMS is one of the few public safety jobs that actually requires education prior to employment.

Most hire for their physical agility's and then are placed into an academy style training center.

Not so much...while ensuring that a canidate can complete the initial training and actually perform, many physical agility tests are VERY watered down from what they used to be (that's a whole 'nother topic). The most important part is really the interviews...remember, many skills can be taught, but you can't teach someone how to have a personality. And given that we have to live with each other for, on average, a third of our lives while we're working, personality (which includes the ability to learn) is pretty d@mned important. (actually something I'd like to see stressed more in EMS; don't just look at someones credentials but how they interact with people; good indicator for how they'll interact with the public)

I deal with IAFF and associated representatives now on a weekly basis, along with their legislative affairs representatives. So I think I have a little handle other than anecdotal feelings.Maybe better than some, i'll give you that, but not entirely, sorry.

I have no problem of their involvement, what I do have a problem is their clear intentions of take-over in EMS. Even some of their proposal that it would costs more but "in the long run be better for the community". Their ideologies that they are the only one eligible and qualified is ludicrous. Fire Departments was only involved due to no one would take EMS at the time, not that they had special skills in medicine.

I can't speak for your area, but in some areas in very well may be in the public's best interest to have a fire (or third service would be best) based system...really it's going to depend on a lot. What's true in one area won't be somewhere else.

Again, brief history compare the Fire Services response to EMS even 12 years ago and now. The reason again is fire suppression responses are down (which is good) and to justify existence and personnel one has better have something for them to do.

Same old same old.

Yes, it would be nice that traditional EMS could have the same representation. It is doubtful we will see a lot of activity due to apathy in medics and many EMT's only using EMS as a stepping stone into Fire Service or another profession. As well, it is hard to be motivated after responding to 15 emergency calls a shift and having to work another job to make poverty salary.

Wait...are you saying that EMS workers aren't willing to make some personal sacrifices to better EMS in the US? Interesting. Are you also saying that many don't care what happens to EMS? Very interesting. That aside, I don't have to much sympathy, I'm sorry. If people really want change it's time to stop using fire as the big bad boogyman, step up and start doing something. Honestly, do you always think that fire departments got the things they have now? If you do it's time for you to look at your history. We got these things by going out and working for them, same as EMS needs to do. Yes, it takes time for it to happen, and it won't be fun going up against IAFF, but it can be done. It just needs to start, preferable yesterday.

I am not whining, just want fair shake for those in EMS.

I agree, so do I. But, as I said above and previously, it's pathetic to read threads like this and see people complain about fire departments getting all the glory and perks when very few are willing to go out and try and make changes. Nobody wants to make any sacrifices on their part, they just want the benefits. If you are then good, I truly hope that it helps and that you can get others to do the same, but you are one of the few unfortunately.