Should EMTs Have to Babysit Their Medics?

[unknown]

Actually incog you shouldn't have to take a beating for wanting to stay the level you are.

What I think gets us all inflamed is those emt's who state why can't I push this drug, why can't I do an advanced skill if all I have to do is go to an additional class.

If you like the level you are and are happy there then by all means stay there but those who want to do more as emt's and think they should get to play with the fancy medic tools then those are the ones we have problems with.

Those who do not know their limitations nor admit that there should be additional schooling or education to actually perform the skills are the ones who are causing one of the biggest disservices to the profession.

My skills as an EMTB are used behind the console. I work hand in hand with those that are not EMTB. We work in teams of 3 with the EMTB primarily answering the Emergency lines, backed up by 2 others answering non emergent phone lines and radio traffic. The time does come when non medical person must answer an emergency line due to call volume. MANY many times they quickly hand off to a medical person or call for the in house RN (Med-Link) for back up.

[reaper]

Reaper its like this. I have looked at all options. No grants or such for me I make too much money. PLUS I like the Job I have, and It pays just as much if not more than the medics make around me. So I ask you this. Why further my education (sighting the hardships it will place on me and my children) when the pay is better than most and the benifits are good? BUT..... Why must I stand the onslaught of the "lowley emtb" when the EMT-B is all I need to do my job?

My pay will not increase with the EMTP, as a matter of fact I stand to make less (in the area I live in mind you) If I quit my current job to work on the ground truck as a paramedic. NOW if I wanted to fly.... that is another story and I would have to work the ground for at least 3 years before I fly. I don't really want to do that, I like what I do and I do it well........and It works for me and my children. I just don't understand why we EMT-B's must continue to take a verbal beating for not furthering our education. Thats our choice and we don't need or deserve to be drug through the mud for it!!

I am not putting you down for " Being an EMT-B". If you are happy at your job and are making good money, then by all means stay put. If someone is happy in life and at their job, then you can't ask for much more.

All I was saying is that I get tired of the ones that want to play medic, but don't want to get the education. This does not apply to you.

I am just trying to let people know that there are ways to go back to school, you just have to want it bad enough.

[Asysin2leads]

Reaper its like this. I have looked at all options. No grants or such for me I make too much money. PLUS I like the Job I have, and It pays just as much if not more than the medics make around me. So I ask you this. Why further my education (sighting the hardships it will place on me and my children) when the pay is better than most and the benifits are good?

Not saying that incognitogirl does this, but I just think its amusing that for SOME providers, volunteering as an EMT-B is NOT about the money but about helping others and serving the community but going to medic school IS about the money. I just scratch my head sometimes.

[AnthonyM83]

The above conversation and logic does not apply to LACo EMS.

In said LA situation:

Paramedics start IV's / print 12-leads.

EMT's save lives by disobeying paramedics.

[JPINFV]

^

You forgot about holding the wall for 3 hours. (I will always hate PIH for that. At least Whittier fed the EMS crews and had a decent cafeteria)

[unknown]

You know what, YES I am gonna go there.....

On thread after thread I have pondered and pondered this....

Excuse me as I vent because I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND!

In my years as an EMT-B I have been praised by my medics. I had referred to myself many many times as "Just and EMT" BUT I have been admonished many times for making that statement.

When it comes to asking questions, as an EMTB I have been in the situation to where I didn't want to question my medic but I did have to ask the obvious because he was so wrapped up in the deeper aspects of what was going on that he ignored the simple thing that was going to make his interventions null and void if it wasn't addressed. I was always told BY MEDICS- a good EMT always saves a Medics arse. In my experience in and out of the field I have never EVER ran into the adverse reactions of being an EMTB that I have encountered here. Why is that? In real life my status of an EMTB is a welcomed thing. In the community I live in, we don't have enough of them and my employer hires individuals and sends them to EMT school to be able to preform the job I do.

So PEOPLE PLEASE! Explain to me why in the world EMT CITY is so down on and against EMT-B? I do not for the life of me understand it. When I have multiple job offers, friends that are medics begging me to work the ground and utilize my skills (in my case having a keen eye for the small details that often gets over looked by others) instead of being holed up in a basement behind a console. I make excellent money for what I do in the community I live in. To give up what I do would be senseless and STUPID because no one can even come close to paying me what I make with AEL.

So please forgive me for not understanding and being mind boggled at the undercurrent and constant EMT~B bashing fest that take place here. I have ZERO respect at this point in time for several ( gee names need not be mentioned) because of the Verbal insults and on onslaught against the EMT~B. If we where as useless and worthless as we are made out to be our accreditation would not even exist. Jobs such as mine wouldn't require our licensure. My medic friends wouldn't incourage me to get out of the basement and back into the truck.

So for those of you that read this and are against the EMT~B- GIVE IT A REST! If we didn't have a place there wouldn't even be a class to be taken, a job to be offered, and NO accreditation would exist. UNTIL they completely do away will ALL EMT~B jobs, classes and licensures; do us all a favor, and PLEASE!! LAY OFF THE EMT~B!!

[akflightmedic]

When it comes to asking questions, as an EMTB I have been in the situation to where I didn't want to question my medic but I did have to ask the obvious because he was so wrapped up in the deeper aspects of what was going on that he ignored the simple thing that was going to make his interventions null and void if it wasn't addressed.

If we where as useless and worthless as we are made out to be our accreditation would not even exist. Jobs such as mine wouldn't require our licensure. My medic friends wouldn't incourage me to get out of the basement and back into the truck.

So for those of you that read this and are against the EMT~B- GIVE IT A REST! If we didn't have a place there wouldn't even be a class to be taken, a job to be offered, and NO accreditation would exist. UNTIL they completely do away will ALL EMT~B jobs, classes and licensures; do us all a favor, and PLEASE!! LAY OFF THE EMT~B!!

First, I simply wish to respond to create more discussion. These are not cheap shots and are legitimate questions and observations.

Could you please provide an example to explain the passage I bolded above?

I would like to know if this mistake you prevented was due to inadequacy on the medics part or a perceived notion on the EMTs part, as well as whether or not this mistake would have been caught by another medic or only by the eyes of a highly trained EMT.

If you will reread your entire post, you will notice two things.

1. It is overwrought with emotion, which clouds one's ability to step back and logically rationalize or debate. It prevents one from seeing the larger picture, does not allow you to remain objective and make informed decisions based on fact.

2. Your entire post is "you, you, you". You are taking this way too personally. You may be the exception to the rule as there always are and there are others like you. However, the few exceptions out of the thousands does not help the cause.

There are some Basics on here who have been able to step back, analyze the information and say, wow that IS a good point and I never realized due to...xyz. Those basics realize how faulty the system is, how inadequate the education is and for the most part how it is wrong to continue to perpetuate the myth of EMTs are all a community or patient really needs and EMTs save medics. These individuals also are doing what they can to further the standards and to make it better for those that follow behind us.

They are the ones who deserve respect because they realize what they are sowing today will not reap the rewards until many years from now for all those coming up behind. They realize the rewards to be reaped may have no baring on them and may not benefit them personally, yet they push for higher standards anyways. They are not considering what is in it for them, only what is best for the patient and for the EMS profession.

As for the whole "down on basics" issue, it is more out of a frustration by the ones who continuously talk about it. Grass roots campaign if you will, we have to start somewhere. To make changes you have to present the ideas to the masses and this is a great place to do it. They want the system to be better and there is a way to make it better.

We have a plan. Do you? Can you present a plan that logically justifies leaving the system as is? Can you share a plan that explains how this is the best thing for all and justify the ramifications of such? If not, then strive for improvement.

Your comments about how if it were not needed, it wouldn't exist are not entirely accurate. Imagine if we had done it right from the beginning, never created the multiple levels? Oh wait, that is how we did it. Then politicians and fire departments got involved and wanted more for less or even for free. So then we started dumbing down the curriculum and creating different levels and basically cheating the patients. Everyone patted each other on the back about how they are saving the community money,etc but at what expense? What is the cost?

These are the types of people that stand by the old famous quote "Nothing is too good for our boys, so nothing is what they will get".

The cost is less than 40 years later we are left with a fragmented, woefully inadequate system with much dissension among the ranks. The patients suffer, the EMTs and Medics suffer, and the RESPECT for our PROFESSION suffers.

We are still young (EMS), and now is the time to make changes. We do not need to continue as is, just cause that is what we have always done. We need to make changes and fix it now while we are young and make those changes last. If we are going to do it, then we need to do it right. That is what this entire "debate" or desire to change is all about.

Change is hard and met with resistance, that is nothing new; however, if you are passionate about EMS and delivering the best care with the best educated provider every time to the members in your community, then get on board and lets make it happen.

Do not worry about the "what ifs" of I will lose my job or be unable to meet the new standards I championed for. Nothing is going to happen that fast but the time to start is now. And eventually when that day does arrive, it will be the best for all. You will be able to sit back in the knowing satisfaction that you helped make the system better and improved overall care for people in your community. Altruism at its finest...

For the ones who continue to take this so personally, you need to realize this is not a EMT vs Medic thing. This is not medics being scared cause ALS skills are being given away. This is about patient care, what is best for them. It is also about gaining respect for our profession, not diluting it to the point where we are viewed as nothing more than protocol monkeys and taxi drivers.

More to follow when I stop getting interrupted, hope my thoughts are decipherable.

[unknown]

Could you please provide an example to explain the passage I bolded above?

Fair enough. Two medics working together one a student one not... are being very proactive to package and treat a patient, trauma from an MVA with a questionable Blood Pressure. In their eagerness to "load and go" which by all means needed to be done, they immediately started to strap the patient down and quickly began to prepare to place IV's... HOWEVER I simply asked if there was any thing they wanted to do prior to strapping this patient to the back board. I felt we needed to expose the patient and do a quick assessment. After the DUH look I received they quickly joined me in removing the clothing and discovered a bleed behind the right knee that COULD HAVE BEEN life altering for the patient. You can provide all the IV fluids you want but if your patient bleeds pink what good is it going to do you? YES they had done a quick once over to the patient (who was covered in blood from the death of the occupant in the back seat of the car with him) but I felt something else was prevalent and they had a mind set to push IV'S meds and such. Patient was +LOC but had a patent airway. BOTH medics admitted to being focused on the bad blood pressure and what they where going to do to treat it, not stopping to think about finding the initial cause. They just zoned on one thing. It happens. I guess. I didn't spend much time in the field, it wasn't practical for me and NO I won't sit here and say another medic wouldn't have done the same thing I did.

1. It is overwrought with emotion, which clouds one's ability to step back and logically rationalize or debate. It prevents one from seeing the larger picture, does not allow you to remain objective and make informed decisions based on fact.

Nope, it's not overwrought with emotion. Not at all. It is a statement of observation being made and a question asked as how it is THESE Forms do not reflect the real time setting I exist in. Doesn't add up, and certainly doesn't make sense.

2. Your entire post is "you, you, you". You are taking this way too personally. You may be the exception to the rule as there always are and there are others like you. However, the few exceptions out of the thousands does not help the cause.

And again NO this is not being taken personally. I can not speak for any one but myself and I only have my experience to go by so by all means I tell what I have witnessed and I ask the question that I have. But no I am not taking this personally YOU however, as it seems to me, are taking this out of context.

[JPINFV]

incognitogirl, I do have a simple question that will determine much in this discussion. Do you believe that 110 hours of training with 2 hours of anatomy and physiology and 1 hour of pharmacology is enough time to make, what is in essence (i.e. highest medical provider providing care to a patient without direct oversight), an independent medical provider?

note: Numbers taken from the EMT-B standard curricula per NHTSA.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/ems/pub/emtbnsc.pdf

Appendix E

[unknown]

incognitogirl, I do have a simple question that will determine much in this discussion. Do you believe that 110 hours of training with 2 hours of anatomy and physiology and 1 hour of pharmacology is enough time to make, what is in essence (i.e. highest medical provider providing care to a patient without direct oversight), an independent medical provider?

note: Numbers taken from the EMT-B standard curricula per NHTSA.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/ems/pub/emtbnsc.pdf

Appendix E

My answer is adamantley NO.

Not an independent medical provider as in I do not support BLS crews AT all. (I am assuming here that you are refereing to this?)

I do believe a good team of EMT~B and a Paramedic for an ALS crew is not at all a bad idea. Especially with the shortage of medics we have. We have many (SEVERAL Emt~B working our local services that did not pass the paramedic exams. They took the classes they tried and they are still Good medical providers and they still do an excellent job as an EMT backing up their Paramedic. Why stick 2 paramedics in 1 truck for 1 crew when you can take 2 EMT~B paired up with the 2 Medics and now have twice the needed coverage? THAT is all I am saying. However again I do not support a BLS crew on its own. I believe an EMT~B to be an asset to the Medic. I myself do not want to nor have any desire to be out there without a Paramedic having my back.

WHY? Because I know I can not do what he has been trained to do. I do not in any manner support or condone those who feel EMT~B should be allowed to do things a medic can do.