I need some help explaining something......

[Richard B the EMT]

katbemeEMT-B wins a free blood pressure check! Correct on both counts.

(I thought I was the only one remembered the "writings" of Victor Appleton the third, the committee designated name of authorship, the Tom Swift Jr children's SciFi series of books. Let's go back to the moon using the ol' Repellatron!)

[Lone Star]

I was kind of hoping that some of the docs on here would step in and offer an explanation....

The person I showed that video to insists that the 'cadaver' is actually a live person.....HELP!

[Richard B the EMT]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cadaver

From the online Merriam-Webster Dictionary...

cadaver

One entry found.

cadaver

Main Entry:

ca·dav·er

Pronunciation:

kə-ˈda-vər

Function:

noun

Etymology:

Latin, from cadere to fall

Date:

circa 1500

: a dead body; especially : one intended for dissection

— ca·dav·er·ic -ˈdav-rik, -ˈda-və- adjective

[Lone Star]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cadaver

From the online Merriam-Webster Dictionary...

cadaver

One entry found.

cadaver

Main Entry:

ca·dav·er

Pronunciation:

kə-ˈda-vər

Function:

noun

Etymology:

Latin, from cadere to fall

Date:

circa 1500

: a dead body; especially : one intended for dissection

— ca·dav·er·ic -ˈdav-rik, -ˈda-və- adjective

Thanks Richard, but thats not the part that needs to be explained....lol

The part his person is having 'problems' with is the fact that the 'cadaver' in this video actually moved.

As near as I can tell, something along the lines of a TENS unit was involved to make the muscles contract in the shoulder, thereby lifting the arm.

The person I've been discussing this with states that if the person on the table were in fact dead, there is no way to stimulate such activity with electricity. THATS where I need help explaining things.....

LS

[Richard B the EMT]

Considering what is done to a dead body in an autopsy, I must hope that any video showing an autopsy where the "body" moves is either a total computer generated simulation, or some so called "B" movie Horror Picture.

(For the uninformed, for me, a "B" movie is a second feature, possibly not as popular as the main feature. Think a documentary of the life of the fruit fly, for whatever reason, shown as a second feature with "Star Wars-Return Of The Jedi")

[ccmedoc]

To elaborate on Eyedawns summary..very briefly, as this can be a bit tiresome to explain..:

[web:b775ba5441]http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/VL/GG/garland_PDFs/Fig_16.37.pdf[/web:b775ba5441]

See the above visual. It is hard to explain without visuals.The chemicals/proteins are actin, myosin, and ATP. Actin and myosin are proteins in your muscles; Each cycle requires that a myosin molecule bind and break down one ATP molecule for energy.

Now to understand rigor mortis, follow the ATP (and especially the breakdown

of ATP).

When an organism dies, lots of myosin will have ATP bound, ready for a stimulus to start a muscle contraction. This would be like step 2 above. Note that myosin is not gripping actin tightly in step 2. With time, ATP will spontaneously degrade to ADP and Pi (inorganic phosphorus). As this happens in a dead person's muscles, it is as in step 3. This starts the chain of events leading to Steps 4 and 5, even in a dead person. This is where you could have a muscle contraction in a dead person. These random muscle contractions lead to the odd movements of facial and limb muscles in the dead.

The myosin stays stuck to the actin UNTIL it is freed by the attachment of a fresh ATP.

In the dead, there is no source of ATP, so the myosin STAYS stuck to the actin.

Hence, the stiffness (rigor mortis) of death. And finally, the muscle proteins

will eventually start to degrade (decompose). As they do, they will release their grip, and the stiffness will go away (6-12 hrs..give or take)

I will try to drudge up an old powerpoint or flash video I have on disc.

It is hard to explain otherwise. Understanding it and explaining it, especially

on a message board is very difficult..for me at least.

I have seen dead people sigh..but not in a lab or morgue..Only a few hours

dead..

Did I confuse you more??

[Lone Star]

Wow! That made it about as clear as mud!

I don't know if you watched the video that was in the first post on this thread, If not, I suggest you view it (if nothing more than for a great laugh)

I've tried to explain that even in a dead body, this 'movement' is possible by supplying electrical current (as from a TENS unit). The person I'm trying to explain this to insists that the body on the table isn't a corpse, but an actual live person....

This is where the docs (and othe posters come in).

I've used Luigi Galvani's experiments on dead frogs to help explain this phenomenon, but I still can't convince my friend that it IS possible to elicit involuntary movement in 'dead people', but so far am unable to explain this well enough to prove my point.....

One question raised is "How long after death is this phenomenon possible? I know that in my junior high school biology class, a frog taken from a jar of formaldehyde was used to demonstrate this, so I know it's possible several months after death (at least in the case of the frogs).....

[mobey]

It would surprise me if this was not a dead guy.

He dosent take a breath or twitch for 30 seconds, then even after the joke is over, he still continues to not breath or move... seems pretty dead to me.

[Lone Star]

It would surprise me if this was not a dead guy.

He dosent take a breath or twitch for 30 seconds, then even after the joke is over, he still continues to not breath or move... seems pretty dead to me.

I would tend to agree, but the friend in question thinks that the person is alive and has excellent self control......

[mobey]

I would tend to agree, but the friend in question thinks that the person is alive and has excellent self control......

In that case I don't want to know what the guy under the table was doing :shock: