American Fire Fighters demoted for not speaking Spanish

[Asysin2leads]

Not to mention that the part about the majority of ODF firefighters I've met are about the whitest people you'll ever find. The ones that aren't speak better English than I do. And since this doesn't apply to contract crews...

"Jim Walker of the Department of Forestry said "what we do know is 85 percent of the crew make-up is of Hispanic decent."

What say you to that?

[triemal04]

"Jim Walker of the Department of Forestry said "what we do know is 85 percent of the crew make-up is of Hispanic decent."

What say you to that?

First I'd like to see the figures to back it up. Second, what exactly count's as hispanic decent? Third, is he talking about ONLY ODF or all crews based in Oregon? (if it's all I still think 85% is high, but it'd definitely be up there) Fourth, could this be...I don't know...a small distortion of the facts to help back up a very unpopular rule? Fifth, I suppose I could be wrong and my own experiences have only been with the small minority of non-hispanic ODF employees.

Edit: Forgot sixth, how many ODF employees can't speak adequate english? Hell, how many wildland firefighters total can't speak adequate english? That is what really needs to be looked at, not what color someone's skin is or where their anscectors came from.

[Kaisu]

appreciate the post asysin2leads... regarding the Canadian French thing - Canada was founded by the French. They had the area now known as Quebec set up and running when the British took it from them in a war. The English did what they've done in Ireland and everywhere else that they conquered... supress the language, outlaw the customs, etc... trying to make the French docile subjects of the Crown... The official bilingual status of Canada was an attempt to recognize the history and the struggle of the French for self determination - bring them in as equal partners in a multicultural Canada.. This policy was completely different from the "melting Pot" approach of the US and the aparteid that exists in IReland and existed for a long time in South Africa. Except for the FLQ stuff in the 70s, Canada is managing to make this work without bloodshed and violence. In Canada, people bitched about French on the cereal boxes, but in the grand scheme of historical oppression it was a pretty small price to pay.

The South Western part of the US is very similar. The area was settled and civilized by Spanish speaking people. Wars and political lines on a map wrested control of California, parts of Arizona, New Mexico and Texas from the Spanish to the English and later the United States. The fact is that hispanic peoples have a historical and cultural tie to large parts of what is now the US of A.

Asking At what point does a people's cultural identity have to take second place to society's ability to function is setting up a straw man. That is presupposing that the two are contradictory or somehow exclusionary ideals. A society's ability to function depends to a large extent on it's flexibility in the face of ever changing cultural identities.

Thanks again for elevating the discussion

[dahlio]

If I'm not mistaken, there is no official language in the United States. Specific states have passed laws making english an official language, but there are still many without official languages. New Jersey being one without an official language, as well as Oregon being without an official language.

Proof, or what convinced me

[DwayneEMTP]

...Why not require the entire crew to speak the same tongue?

It would appear that approx. 85% of the crew already does.

So what is the point you were trying to make?

Dwayne

[triemal04]

It would appear that approx. 85% of the crew already does.

So what is the point you were trying to make?

Dwayne

No, 85% are of hispanic decent. (forgetting that this may mean 85% on ODF employees, 85% of all brush bunnies, etc etc) Doesn't mean that they all speak Spanish. Or that they all are fluent in Spanish.

My point is that this is a worthless solution to what is a very real problem.

Edit: I do like it that you think that because someone happens to have a different skin color they automatically are able to speak a different language. So tell me, does that mean that all blacks speak some African dialect? All Native American's speak their tribal language? Asians speak a language from that part of the world? Or, hell, does this mean that every Irish-American should be able to speak gaelic? I'm part Polish and Russian...is it a bad thing that I can't speak either? Just wondering... :toothy10:

[Scaramedic]

A couple of important points.

#1. If you actually go to the KATU link supplied at the top of the OP's post you will see this. "Story Updated: Aug 20, 2006 at 10:07 PM PDT"

#2. If you go to the ODF website you'll find this...

The old saying, “Rumor can run around the world before the truth has got its boots on,” is borne out in information circulating on the web and elsewhere that claims the Oregon Department of Forestry (ODF) is firing and demoting fire crew bosses that do not speak Spanish.

This is not the case. Here are the facts:

* ODF has no requirement that its employees speak Spanish, and does not demote or fire anyone because they don’t speak Spanish. And to our knowledge, no crew boss on the private contract fire crews we use has ever been fired because of inability to speak Spanish.

* ODF and its partner agencies contract with private companies to supply fire crews for frontline firefighting work. The crews work under the guidance of incident management teams fielded by ODF and other agencies to manage large firefighting operations.

* Because English is the language of firefighting in the United States, we must have the ability to communicate with all crews. Accordingly, the contract requires that the leaders of contract crews speak English. This requirement covers the crew boss and the three squad bosses on a typical 20-person crew.

* Companies may choose whom they hire for their crews. If a company elects to hire employees who do not speak English, then the supervisors of that crew must speak English as well as the language of any crew members who don’t speak English. This is a matter of good communication, safety, and effectiveness for the agencies that hire crews under the contract. Over the years, this system has established a record of solid firefighting performance and safety.

So basically we're are arguing over a two year old bullshit story that has been spread around the internet.

Kaisu I never meant to say you were liberal. I said drop the liberal history book. Too many history books today teach that if your skin was black you were the only oppressed group in history. Not a slam on you.

[Kaisu]

So basically we're are arguing over a two year old bullshit story that has been spread around the internet.

the hell with the facts - brawl on ...

Kaisu I never meant to say you were liberal. I said drop the liberal history book. Too many history books today teach that if your skin was black you were the only oppressed group in history. Not a slam on you.

Don't sweat it Scaramedic... you are AOK in my book . :wink:

[Richard B the EMT]

I have teachers in my family. All agree that the Irish were already arriving in the United States of America from before the Civil War, and during it. Irish immigrants fought for the "Army of the Republic" (United States Army), and the Confederate States of America. The "Fighting 69th" from New York was predominantly Irish, which is why they are still a favorite of the Saint Patrick's Day Parade, usually as one of the first units in the parade to march up 5th Avenue, usually followed by the FDNY.

[Scaramedic]

I have teachers in my family. All agree that the Irish were already arriving in the United States of America from before the Civil War, and during it. Irish immigrants fought for the "Army of the Republic" (United States Army), and the Confederate States of America. The "Fighting 69th" from New York was predominantly Irish, which is why they are still a favorite of the Saint Patrick's Day Parade, usually as one of the first units in the parade to march up 5th Avenue, usually followed by the FDNY.

There is no doubt there were Irish before the Civil War. But the fact is the greatest immigrations to the U.S. came after the Civil War. Almost every ethnic group grew exponentially at the latter part of the 19th to the early part of the twentieth century.