Repost of a previous question, fire and ems together

[boeingb13]

Here in Florida, the majority of our fire departments also have rescue ( ambulances).

We also have several private ambulance companies through out the state, only

a few of them actually do 911 calls, the rest cover the nursing homes, rehabilitation centers, and hospital discharges, and whatever else comes their way.

Coming from a fire/rescue area it is all I have known for the most part, and I have never noticed any problems with our systems here.

Ive researched alot of the states statistics and they are usually pretty good, along with that you never hear people complain about ems and fire being together.

On the other hand I hear constant complaining from the majority of the northern ems personnel I talk to, whether it be people on vacation here or people on this site.

So I pose the question of why is it such a problem, why do fire and ems not want to work together, for the most part in the northern states.

Two things i've learned is as a team we can get alot further, and the only constant is change. So to those of you who work in the states where ems and fire are not combined, and you think they should stay that why, please explain why you feel that way.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Dude, didn't you get the message the last time this was locked. Same question same locking.

Did you post this to see what kind of reaction you would get just like last time?

[spenac]

Dude, didn't you get the message the last time this was locked. Same question same locking.

Did you post this to see what kind of reaction you would get just like last time?

Ruff OP actually has told me he is serious. That he is wanting an in depth discussion.

I plan on sitting down here in a few minutes and make a serious statement. If he indeed steers this towards another fight then I would vote to ban him. I am going to go under the impression he wants real discussion and not fights.

[spenac]

First I am guilty at times of giving the blanket impression that fire/medics are bad medics. I know that there are some that are as good as they can be working in a divided field. I do maintain that no one can be their best at both fields. I know that some strive to be the best but it is impossible when you are required to specialize in two so vary different fields.

I am aware that being on the ambulance is optional in some fire services. The majority though seem to require it. This is when the biggest problem begins. I want to fight fire but to keep my job I have to become a "Paramedic" . With that attitude do you really expect that I am going to choose a school with real education or just the quickest one that teaches me how to pass the test?

You and I know the answer. With that attitude I am going to take the easy way out. I will get taught to pass the exam with no clue what is really happening. Then in the field I will be surrounded with many others with the same attitude so not really much chance I will improve. Who suffers? The patients suffer. Perhaps ambulance response is quicker but if appropriate care is not given it does not matter.

I have several good friends in fire services. They were required to become paramedics. They actually tried and went for better education. But their protocols as Paramedics are more basic than what I operated under as a basic. We have had several try to work at my current full time job which to me has very limited protocols and they were unable to adjust and quit or were fired for failing to provide appropriate care. I would have hated to see them at my old full time job ( current part time ). Whose fault was it. It was the fault of the service they were in. They were given limited training ( I use training because you could not call it education ). I have seen video of wreck scenes and they are a lawyers best friend, because it is clear they do not not what they are doing.

I resent the fire service being involved because so many look at it as a means of revenue. They are looking out for themselves not for the patients. I have seen several small town fire services convince the city that they could run the ambulance better. They then forced people that have no desire to be medical professionals to get certifications. The departments also claimed that the Healthcare professionals were able to join, but they required them to become firefighters. Most had no desire to become firefighters and basically lost their jobs. Really they were forced out.

Both firefighters and EMS healthcare professionals do important jobs. But the are very unrelated and should be separate so you get people that choose to do what they want and thus will give it their best effort. The winner if they are separate? The public, because if they have a fire they get the best. If they have a heart attack and the ambulance shows up they will get the best. Yes they both get the best when separate. When combined its a roll of the dice as to who shows up.

As to North vs South I'm about as South as you get in the USA. So your impression appears based more on a small area than nationwide.

[jsadin]

Spenac hit the nail on the head. 99% of your fire guys joined the fire dept to (gasp) fight fires, not to run ambulance calls. The idea of having fire run ambulances is generally to "cook the books" and justify your expenditures due to your large call volume (of which 99% is EMS and 1% is for actual fire calls). I don't have a problem with fire running the ambulance service if it is a completely seperate medical division that does not require you to be a fire fighter (I believe Fall River, MA is like this?).

Finding employees that can function at high levels in dual roles is difficult in any job. Doing it with medics/fire fighters is a recipe for disaster. Some do it...most don't.

[Dustdevil]

Ruff OP actually has told me he is serious. That he is wanting an in depth discussion.

It's all been discussed ad infinitum a million times before. There is no aspect of this that has not been thoroughly been covered, even recently. He's been there for two years. If he didn't read it or get it then, I have little faith he will read it or get it now. Besides, he already answered his own question. So really, I don't think there is any chance that he is serious.

[spenac]

Ive researched alot of the states statistics and they are usually pretty good,

Well since I agreed to help this topic not get into the standard pissing match. Can you share some of the stats you found in your research? Perhaps this would help myself and the others that I usually attack with to see if we really have anything new to discuss on this topic.

Being older and having seen it as a citizen and then as an insider of both fire and EMS, to me it is clear that a Healthcare profession does not belong in a fire department.

So Bo can you share something new that would lend itself to help this become a productive discussion rather than a rehash of so many other discussions? I've done what I can now its up to you to build.

[emsmedic39]

I am in a class with persons from fire, that are just taking the class to keep their job. They do not want to be there and are just passing. What kind of medic will they be?

[ncmedic309]

I am in a class with persons from fire, that are just taking the class to keep their job. They do not want to be there and are just passing. What kind of medic will they be?

It's quite simple - the majority of calls that any fire service will run are EMS calls. It's EMS runs that keep the numbers up and the ability to justify the new stations, new apparatus and continuing increases in manpower. I work part-time for a fire-based EMS system - and everyone there knows that the majority of the call volume / responsibility is EMS related - almost 70% of the call volume. They are also getting ready to hire multiple new employees due to the increased call volume - almost 70% of those new employees being paramedics.

Also, I'm not knocking the fire service - just telling it how it is - I actually enjoy working at the fire-based system more than I do the private EMS system.

[boeingb13]

For the most part the stats were run times and call volumes.

It seems to me that you find alot happier people when you give people the option to go rescue or stay combat. Of course no one wants to be forced into something they didnt apply for, I fully understand that. If your going to have a dept that makes people go to rescue of course theres going to be complaints, and bad patient care. Which is ridiculous being no matter what truck you're on, you should be doing the best you can to help who ever is in need.

Sometimes in the chat here I forget that once you start heading north the fire and rescue are separate, and I see all the people bad mouthing each other, i've just always had the belief that we work together, as a team we can accomplish anything that comes our way.

I've never said anything bad about anyone in any aspect of the fire/rescue service, but not everyone feels the same as I do.

So though this has been talked about before, I just wanted to put my view out there. Our rescue crews are happy doing what they do, because they have a choice, it"s just to bad everyone can't get on board with that and let people make their own decisions.