Scottish Medic can't help bleeding man

[JakeEMTP]

Can anyone from the UK shed some light on this subject?

http://www.ems1.com/ems-products/incident-...o-dying-patient

I can't believe this is allowed to happen. I wonder if the medic had left their fly-car, what would be the repercussions? Would the Union have saved her job as they are supposed to do? Where was the local constabulary to secure the scene? Surely the public outcry would be enough to save the medic.

I don't know if I could have sat in the car and watched someone bleed out. It kind of defeats the purpose of a QRV as stated in the article.

[tradesman531]

Can anyone from the UK shed some light on this subject?

http://www.ems1.com/ems-products/incident-...o-dying-patient

I can't believe this is allowed to happen. I wonder if the medic had left their fly-car, what would be the repercussions? Would the Union have saved her job as they are supposed to do? Where was the local constabulary to secure the scene? Surely the public outcry would be enough to save the medic.

I don't know if I could have sat in the car and watched someone bleed out. It kind of defeats the purpose of a QRV as stated in the article.

Here in the USA all departments have SOPS in place regarding entering an unsecure seen, though our hearts are in the right place to treat our head tells us to survive for the many other calls we my be blessed with. Yes I broke the rule more than once but as a volunteer I ddidn't get a pay cureduction.

[JakeEMTP]

]Here in the USA all departments have SOPS in place regarding entering an unsecure seen, though our hearts are in the right place to treat our head tells us to survive for the many other calls we my be blessed with. Yes I broke the rule more than once but as a volunteer I ddidn't get a pay cureduction.

I understand all that as I am a medic in the USA. The point I was trying to make, which I obviously failed miserably at, why wasn't the scene secured? PD apparently was nowhere to be found. If the 2 man crew was 10 min away, surely PD was closer, and in actuality, I prefer PD to secure my scenes. This was Glasgow. A major City not some podunk 500 pop. town where the nearest cop is 3 towns over.

Nobody loves me more than me. I won't put my life in danger foolishly. I don't think I would have entered this scene with a 2-man crew. That being said, what would be the point of a QRV then?

[scott33]

This has been discussed in some of the UK ambulance forums.

Personally, from what I have read, including the actual radio transcript of the events of the call, I think the only issue here was lack of scene safety, and a delay in obtaining it. The lone, female, responder was advised to sit tight and wait for both PD and back up ambulance crew. There was apparently an angry crowd converging on the scene, and it was not safe for her to enter alone. End of.

Easterhouse is one of the rougher parts of Glasgow (certainly was when I lived near there) and Police are simply not found in as much abundance as they are in the US and Canada. It’s a case of demand outweighing supply. There is also the much-debated issue of sending lone responders to calls, in order to meet response time targets (less than 8 minutes for the most severe cases). In this case, the “clock” would have stopped when the paramedic arrived on scene, regardless of the fact she did not make patient contact until backup arrived. This is a source of much frustration for most NHS ambulance staff.

Just as an FYI, there are no volunteers (worthy of mention) in this part of the UK. These are all career medics, who face constant daily verbal and physical abuse from a generally thankless public (any google search on "ambulance staff violence" will usually take you straight to the UK to give an idea of the cultural, and endemic nature of things).

I would have had absolutely no hesitation in doing the same if I were in the same position.

There were mistakes made, but having used both rule number one of scene size up (risk to yourself) as well as following the ongoing instructions from dispatch to stay where she was until backup arrived, the paramedic now finds her name plastered all over the press, and subject to questionable practice.

That's the real shame.

[Kelspook]

I work for the service in question, in a different part of Scotland, and this has been discussed a lot in our station. Our view is that is simply underlines everything that's wrong with trying to replace double crewed vehicles with single crewed RRUs (rapid response units).

The official policy is that until the scene has been secured, you don't go near it if you're on your own. If you're in a double crewed vehicle, you can use your own judgement, and if possible scoop the patient up and hightail it out of there- I've done that a couple of times.

It's happening all over, and there are plans afoot to take even MORE double crewed vehicles off and replace them with RRU's, along with bolstering the apparent number of vehicles by crewing a paramedic with someone who is only trained in basic first aid and emergency driving.

Basically, our new chief exec seems to be totally focused on ONLY the response times, well, that and saving money.

This article is commenting on that:-

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish...86908-20426678/

We're all pretty unhappy with the current state of affairs- if I'm at a job, the last thing I want is to have to spend valuable time instructing my partner in what I need them to do, as it's stressful enough with a probationer technician straight from the ambulance college, who at least knows roughly what to do. I don't want my shifts turning into a mix of calls and training my partner from scratch!

This is the original article in the Daily Record:-

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish...86908-20393732/

and the Record veiw of the situation:-

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/comment/newsp...86908-20426607/

Fingers crossed that the powers that be take notice, or the politicians actually do something useful and tell them to stop hamstringing us in this way.

In answer to the first post, the union would have fought tooth and nail for the paramedic in question, and I think it's extremely unlikely that she would have lost her job, as the story would have hit the papers in no time (some helpful, anonymous soul in her station would probably have seen to that) and the service couldn't have sacked her without generating acres of bad press for themselves.

[DwayneEMTP]

Man, these stories piss me off...

A lone medic, male or female, going into a violent trauma alone should be severely reprimanded if not sacked. There was nothing good to come of running in there, but, as the public seems to be as ignorant there as they are here about the realities of EMS everyone feel comfortable raping her in the press for this kids death.

Plus the fact that this little angel had no part in his own demise evidently, as his part only garnered one sentence in the story and the failure of EMS, and this lady medic in particular, made up a whole article.

I do question her mettle if she needed medical leave for PTSD for not being allowed to treat, but not at all her decision to wait for backup.

Craziness...

Dwayne

[Kelspook]

Dwayne, the articles aren't bashing the paramedic, they're bashing the system of single crewed responses replacing double crewed vehicles. That's the way I read it, anyway.

Easterhouse is a very rough area, and Glasgow has Scotland's highest incidents of knife crime. Add to that the culture of the neds at times attacking anyone in uniform, whether they're police, fire or ambulance, and you have a situation where it's incredibly unsafe.

If there's two of you, you've got backup. If you're on your own, there's nobody to watch your back. This is why we're against the RRU's- they were introduced ONLY to improve those stupid government target times.

As for questioning her mettle, she finished her shift, and only went off when the court case came up and brought it all roaring back, along with the thought of having to face the boys family. We're not meant to be judgemental, we're supposed to treat everyone the same, so why shouldn't she have been feeling a lot of guilt over a 19 year old boy that because of the situation she wasn't allowed to try to save?

[JakeEMTP]

Dwayne, the articles aren't bashing the paramedic, they're bashing the system of single crewed responses replacing double crewed vehicles. That's the way I read it, anyway.

That's how I interpreted the article also.

If there's two of you, you've got backup. If you're on your own, there's nobody to watch your back. This is why we're against the RRU's- they were introduced ONLY to improve those stupid government target times.

If it's just you and your partner, how much back-up is that in reality? PD should be securing your scene, end of story. Meeting target response times seems somewhat futile if one can't initiate care. :?

Welcome to emtcity by the way Kelspook. I look forward to your future posts.

[Kelspook]

Thanks for the welcome, Jake. It seems like a pretty cool community here- been lurking for quite a while, only just started posting.

To be fair, I work in a more rural area, but even so, if we think there's a threat, we request the police to meet us at the scene, and don't often have the situation that paras in Glasgow do, where there just aren't enough police to go around.

Most of the time round here, the police get there before we do, as they're usually notified of assaults before we are, and they have more stations and people than we do.

We don't run RRU's in my area, they're only really in the cities. They were trialed, but found to be a total waste of time and resources. What we're concerned about is that they're thinking of reintroducing them (even though it's been proven that they don't work) and that they want to replace experienced, qualified ambulance technicians with driver only grades.

I guess only time will tell if they'll get away with... I'm hoping that they don't.

[air.stump]

I worked in a rural system that toyed with this (RRU's) for a bit. We used them for the same reason, to cut down on response times. We found out that these trucks only work if they are backed up by transport units. They worked the best on the busiest nights. They would also get tied up on the busiest nights waiting for the transport units to clear. Anyway, we scrapped the idea because they had a narrow band of use.

This is one of those double edged sword things. On one side, you have a paramedic that is trained to protect herself from harm and help others who are harmed. On the other side, you have a company that is threatening the paramedics if they step into harms way but, by policy, places them at harms door step on each and every call.

I would want to know what the unions position is on the practice of RRU's. I would also bend the ear of my union rep and voice my concerns. I usually am not for unions but in this case, this seems like the place for them to work for their pay. Also, what is the company and paramedics legal exposure on this call?

As of yet, I have not been in the paramedics' position. I don't envy her position. My sympathy goes out to her and the family of the assault victim.