Stop the bashing!

[chbare]

Man, you know what I love about your post MedicNorth? I can pretty much see you thought process throughout.

You didn't say "be nice", you said "be logical."

You didn't say "Leave people alone", you say "be logical and productive while you teach them."

Pretty cool. I do think sometimes a heavy hand will help some, but you're right, after you've been here a few days it can become second nature to assume the things we've discussed often should be common sense to others.

I like Gaelic a lot, though I think he's a bit off in the ditch here. But his heart seems right, and he's started a much needed discussion, so kudos to him.

You know MN, you Canadians are Ok, sometimes....Knowing that is going to make it even that much harder when we have to invade you some day.... :wink:

Dwayne

Invade? Hell, most of the Canadians I know are from Alberta. I bet they would simply secede.

Take care,

chbare.

[DwayneEMTP]

You know, there is a flip side to this discussion.

What is often considered "negative" is often the 18th attempt to explain to some that this is a professional board. You've all seen the regular onslaught of n00bs that we get with the opinion that "I didn't come here to be judged, I was just looking for a place to hang out!" There have been LONG threads arguing that spelling and grammar shouldn't matter, etc. Is anyone here arguing that that is truly the kind of board where we'd like to spend our time? That's just not how we roll, Right?

And There are a gazillion threads explaining that we need to "come together as brothers and sisters of EMS" regardless of experience, education or level of certification. That we're all equals, as we all do the "same thing." Hogwash, right? I know everyone in this thread well enough to know that you don't really believe this. Respected as people? Sure. equals? No way. Does anyone here actually see me as chbare's, or ak's, or Vent's equal? Ridiculous, and to promote the thought that I should be awarded that status because it "will make me feel better" is detrimental to all. Not just from a learning point of view, but from the point of view of being "real", promoting furthering education, and simply showing respect to those that have earned it.

Are there some comments that are overly negative? Sure. Many of them have been aimed at ME, (I know, I find it hard to imagine too) and the vast majority of the time I've learned from them and made positive adjustments to avoid them in the future. Do we want to attempt to censor any of the comments that "someone" might consider offensive at the risk of developing a board that any 14 year old text messenger would feel comfortable in? Not me. Are we expected to be perfect? Not by a long shot. Eydawn could (And might) spend 10 minutes of her time and tear this post to pieces from her anal retent....Uhhmmm....I mean educated point of view. We aren't expected to be perfect, just as good as we can be today. And a little better tomorrow.

I think community policing of attitudes and aggressiveness is a good thing, as long as you're not attempting to replace YOUR personal responsibility to be productive, spell properly and use proper grammar, and to develop intelligent ideas that you're prepared to support, with politically correct, "can't we all just get along" foolishness. We grow by surrounding ourselves with smart people that disagree with us, not the other way around.

Here's a suggestion as well. This thread isn't a bad idea, but what you've done is complain about an abstract idea of negativity. That's good, just not very effective. I suggest that if you're passionate about the City, and truly believe the idea you're promoting here, that you begin to target specific posts. When you see a post you believe was written poorly, was overly aggressive, illogical or simply snippy, take it to task! Quote the post, highlight the points you disagree with, show the parts that were snide instead of logical, make suggestions for a more productive way to present them, and then allow the community to agree or disagree. That is how you make changes. See what I mean?

We need this kind of dialog at the City. It is a community. It grows, changes, improves, goes backwards sometimes, but forward more often, yet requires our vigilance to keep it valuable. Pretty cool you stepped up to the plate GFF. Now let's see if there's any bite to your bark. :wink:

Dwayne

[JPINFV]

There's a second flip side here as well. Are there negativity and overly snippy posts? Sure. Heck, I tend to be rather blunt when discussing thing, but I'd expect people to be blunt with me. I'd rather learn or confirm something than have a rebuttal sugar coated because someone's concerned about putting my panties in a bunch. At the same time, though, there are plenty of people who take any disagreement as a personal attack, especially when they put out an idea with no attempt to explain, prove, or justify their view. Saying something along "We should be allowed to do XYZ" is pointless and a waste of bandwidth without explaining why XYZ is superior to other options or why it is needed. Leaving it to stand as is is a recipe for a, possible unjustified, harsh response that tends to get people upset because their 'views aren't respected.'

[ccmedoc]

probably the best way to avoid this oh-so offensive criticism, that is most often meant to be constructive, would be to attempt some research into the question or statement being presented.

It would seem that individuals are offended at the tone of the response, not the content. It is a bit aggravating to be asked a question, with obvious avenues of research available, knowing none has been attempted. I think this is a huge contributer to the animosity. Another is blindly expecting your (generic 'your') point of view to be widely accepted as correct, and being put off when much evidence to the contrary is presented. Maybe better debate skills are in order.

Dwayne has a good suggestion:

Here's a suggestion as well. <snip> Quote the post, highlight the points you disagree with, show the parts that were snide instead of logical, make suggestions for a more productive way to present them, and then allow the community to agree or disagree. That is how you make changes. See what I mean?

Dwayne

IMHO, if you disagree with the way someone is doing something, professionally or personally, and you bring it to discussion..you had better have a logical argument to support this feeling. If not, be prepared for the consequences. I have seen some extremely gifted communicators on this site, but you get what you give.. nothing less.

Bottom line, if you want a well informed, learning experience, present yourself as well prepared and receptive..this means accepting the occasional barb from one of these highly qualified individuals, repeating themselves for the umteenth time, as well..

For the namecalling (hosemonkey, hose dragger,etc), I think if a person is comfortable in their profession, and their competence therein, this becomes academic and means nothing. I am amused and somewhat concerned when an individual takes such offense at these teasers. Most often they are dealt in jest, sometimes not :twisted:

This has proven to be a good educational forum and, as such, one should come prepared. Especially if that is your purpose for being here. I would seriously doubt that a professor at the university would put up with a student repeatedly showing up unprepared for discussion or learning..and you PAY them..This is free, be prepared and use it to its full potential..

Just an opinion..

[rat115]

Dwayne, you made some good points. My quesiton is how do we know if someone has or has not researched something. They may not be good at putting some things down in writing.

I guess I'm one who would prefer to have the same question asked by 20 different people at different times who want the answer and give them that answer than to have the question go unasked.

And then, there's the gripes I've see here about people "resurect" threads that were about to delete themselves and turn around an tell a Noob to search the archives for answers. Can't have your cake and eat it too in that instance. Either you deal old threads being resurected or you deal with threads being posted that have already been answered in the past.

I still stand by my questions earlier in this thread where the tone is concerned. Would you write that way to your boss, coworkers or family members? I think that's something that many of us need to think about. (And I know that I've sniped at a few people in my time too.)

[MedicNorth]

It is said, in an educational setting, that there is no such thing as a stupid question - only stupid answers. If I want to know the answer to a question, I go to a place where there are people who can tell me. There are people here who can! I don't want to spend extra time researching those answers from books, the net, or Wikki, or maybe I will and still need input from intelligent, experienced people who live this every day. Asking questions here IS research!

We hear the same questions from different people over and over again. It is because the questions are dumb? No, it is usually because it is a question that most people who don't have a lot of experience will ask - the very fact that it repeats 18 times SHOWS that it is important. If you are too tired of answering it, don't answer it, and leave it to someone who has the patience. I've been a teacher for too long to admit, and yes, I get the same "dumb" questions a hundred times a year. Are they really dumb? No, the dumb thing to do would be to not ask, and learn the hard way, which could be disastrous.

You wanna blast a veteran for a statement you disagree with? Go for it. You want to instruct a newbie on the value of spelling, grammar, thinking things out? Do it politely, maybe in PM.

Those of us who have been around for a while can handle this - those who just come in as newbies deserve some time to learn the ropes. Abuse, rudeness, and plain impatience will send them away, and that makes me sad.

[MedicNorth]

You know MN, you Canadians are Ok, sometimes....Knowing that is going to make it even that much harder when we have to invade you some day.... :wink:

Dwayne

lol - Alberta (which is nominally part of Canada) might be a little tougher to take over than the rest of the country.....

[spenac]

We could go back to this:

http://www.emtcity.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.ph...ght=bash+spenac

[unknown]

Gealic and North...Good comments.

I agree that there is often too much negativity. There are more constructive ways to point out short-comings and problems than bashing and name calling. That's why I don't post often even though I see a number of threads that I'd like to respond to. I'm also careful in chat about who's there because of how certain people act.

I'd like to challenge the ones who are so negative. Would you say what you do on here to a coworker face to face? Would you say things the way you do to your supervisors, medical directors, ect? Would you talk to your own family the way you do to the people on here?

We all have the post that we have the knee-jerk reaction of "Duh!" The nice thing about forums and chat is that you can re-read what you've typed and edit out extreme negativity and judgmentalness before you post it.......IF you want to.

I applaude you Tonya!!

[DwayneEMTP]

...Bottom line, if you want a well informed, learning experience, present yourself as well prepared and receptive..

...those who just come in as newbies deserve some time to learn the ropes.

These are almost counterpoints, though not really. I think they bracket the discussion nicely though.

And then, there's the gripes I've see here about people "resurect" threads that were about to delete themselves and turn around an tell a Noob to search the archives for answers. Can't have your cake and eat it too in that instance. Either you deal old threads being resurected or you deal with threads being posted that have already been answered in the past

See, now I'm right with you here. When someone has read the thread and added something new, I've never really understood the, "Didn't you notice this thread is a year old?" comments. If it's new info, and the thread is still relevant, then I don't see the harm either, though perhaps someone is about to explain it to me.

This is becoming a great thread! I think a tribute to the maturity of our environment is that I've seen some amazing discussion in the most unlikely of places in the last few months. The "rape" thread, the "hit a woman" thread, both should have imploded into smoking heaps of rubbish within two pages. But instead they went on post after post of old, new, common, uncommon, angry, patient, thoughts and ideas. Way cool, I think.

I've also noticed many of the truly educational medical threads have been getting more attention. I think that speaks well of us as a community.

As well, I noticed that many that posted here, but haven't posted in the forums for a while, suddenly started showing up there again!! I thought, "Good God! They didn't simply want to cry, they are actually going to make a difference!" That is the spirit that I love...Cool as hell.

I almost didn't come into this thread simply because of the name. I ASSumed that it would once again be populated by whiners and cry babies wanting to explain why good grammar is dumb. It was only the fact that I thought the OP might have a different slant on things that changed my mind, and I'm glad I did.

I'm curious to see some of the original posters comment on the later posts. Maybe we' ll walk away from here with a different perspective.

Have a great day all.

Dwayne