Strangers are bad enough, now it is the cops...

[MedicNorth]

Well, Dust, if you feel that my education on the subject is lacking, I regret that. It was not the fact that the quote was truncated - rather it was the fact that the part that was amputated was the point of the statement.

Bigger may not be an issue any more, thanks to the invention of firearms - indeed, it hasn't been since the invention of killing weapons that worked from a distance. Meaner is STILL likely to result in an advantage. What concerns me the most is the idea that your general tone here was that the guy got what he deserved. If the result was a deserved one, I fear that the laws that are there to protect us because we are not mean enough (or well-armed enough) will become completely moot. Why bother to call the cops over anything, when it is ok to simply kill the bastards and have the problem solved? At what point will the law become non-existent, simply because our rage, our fear, or our greed justifies any response we make?

I am not a roll-over kind of guy, but I am also not convinced that trespassing or harassment warrants the death penalty. I will try to protect me and mine, but I will do so using the laws that our society has instituted where ever I can.

A "civil society" protects its citizens, and punishes as its mores and codes require. It does NOT condone taking the life of another without judgement and certainly doesn't allow one citizen to hunt another down.

[mrmeaner]

Strength no longer is a factor. Only the element of surprise.

Sorry, but this statement made me laugh at first as it reminded me of the "Spanish Inqusition" sketch from Monty Python.

On a serious note, I believe surprise is only one of a few factors left that influence the use of guns. Another would be morality. I can't morally justify shooting someone because they trespassed onto my property unless I felt a threat against my family or myself. Yet another would be my assessment of risk. Even if I could justify shooting a trespasser, is it worth the risk of potentially going to prison?

I believe that most people have enough self restraint and moral fiber to know when it is appropriate to use deadly force. The problem is that it's the 10 percent that screw it up for everyone else.

The ex-cop sounds like part of that 10 percent. What I got from the stories was that his initial complaint was that kids were often hitting tennis balls into his yard. The FF got involved when the ex-cop's language became foul. Fighting in front of the kids was wrong on both sides. I can't find anything in the story that justifies the shooting, though.

However, this is a story and not a report, so as was stated before, there isn't enough info to convict.

[asy]

Strength no longer is a factor. Only the element of surprise.

The properly educated

A fellow Pink Floyd fan!

SunZi]Resourcefulness, momentum, cunning, the profit motive, flexibility, integrity, secrecy, speed, positioning, surprise, deception, manipulation, responsibility, and practicality.

[hr:869765e536]

most people have enough self restraint and moral fiber

Mr. Colt equalised us all.

Must have been quite the socialist . So we're all equal now?

[CBEMT]

Apparently, you believe that having your face pummeled, by a much larger and fit bully who is trespassing on your property for the purpose of doing so, and who has been harrassing you for years,

Ok, now you're going off the edge again. Gianquitti was on TV the next day with no evidence of any injury whatsoever. Pummelled my ass. Further, there's nothing whatsoever about Pagano "harassing" anyone. I don't see how a couple of kid's toys every now and again reaches the level of "harassment."

I know he's some sort of hero to you, but try to keep in mind that the image that you've created in your head of the valiant misunderstood gun owner defending his castle isn't holding a lot of water right now.

He's a bitter little man who lost his shot at the ultimate job for wanna-be tough guys, then he let some single digit-aged kids drive him over the edge. Now two of them are without a father because of the chip on his shoulder.

[Asysin2leads]

Some simple math for you. Alcohol + 8th grade machismo + handcannon = death.

If there was no gun involved, this would have been another escalation and maybe some slap happiness. However, add a gun and its point-click-die. Which is why I'm much for morons who have nothing better to do than worry about kids being in his yard not be able to access anything larger than a slingshot.

Oh, and the cop in this case? He's going to walk. Registered piece, on his own property. Slap on the wrist at the most. He might lose his job as a police officer due to the bad publicity, but other than that, if he gets more than a misdemeanor, I'll be surprised. We had a similar case in Long Island, a guy blew a 17 year old's face all over his front lawn after the teen decided to play Long-Island-Italian tough guy at his front door. The guy got a year, and that was mostly due to the gun being illegal.

My condolences to the firefighter's family.

[CBEMT]

He's not a cop. He's retired on a rather generous disability pension.

And did you miss the part about chasing the victim across the VICTIM'S property, firing as they ran? I guess you did.

[Dustdevil]

Well, Dust, if you feel that my education on the subject is lacking, I regret that.

And I sincerely regret if you believed that was pointed at you personally. It was not. It was an attempt to say only that I don't think there is much risk of anybody here misunderstanding what you said as a result of my truncated quote. I do not have, and have never had any reason to doubt your education, intelligence, or sincerity. Again, I apologise if I inadvertently gave that impression.

[MedicNorth]

Some threads seem to become much more emotional than others for a number of us, and severely conflicting views can sometimes bring out emotional rather than rational responses. This seems to have been one of them. Apology accepted, and mine offered if I wrote anything that you felt was a personal slam.

This IS a free-speech forum, within reason. I hope it remains so, as a good "Dustup" (pardon the pun) is always stimulating!

[air.stump]

This is an interesting post. The one thing you all are forgetting here is history. What has happened in the past between these two guys that pushed the violence level up to the use of deadly force?

When I lived in the city, the neighbor's kids would jump my fence to retrieve their ball on a regular basis. Not once did I feel the need to lock and load on their parents. I say that and ask the question again, what has happened in the past to lead up to this?"

[Asysin2leads]

He's not a cop. He's retired on a rather generous disability pension.

And did you miss the part about chasing the victim across the VICTIM'S property, firing as they ran? I guess you did.

Okay, well, maybe five years, paroled in less than that. My point is that as horrible as this crime is, it is not as open and shut case as you might think. As emotional as we get for the loss of the victim, I just think you might be a little off in expecting more than what will probably happen. I see people who have committed crimes like this walking around all the time. The guy has no previous record (I assume.) He's a former police officer. Its a registered weapon. There was alcohol involved and the conflict was two way. This means there is a very good chance a judge and a DA will plea it to manslaughter, and the guy will be out in time to complain about the next presidential election.