When are we going to wake up as a profession?

[Sir Andrew]

*Sir Andrew looks around at all the heavy cross fire and wonders what on earth did he start here, and to think that he believed all EMT/Medic were on the same team.

*Sir Andrew runs and finds a safe place to hide from all the fire

P.S. I am sure glad that if I ever train as an EMT I have no plans of working the field with any of you...

[KSEMT122]

You will not learn MORE about being a Paramedic if you get your Associates or even Bachelors degree in it. The only thing you will learn more about is the core classes and whichever electives you decide to take. The Paramedic education doesn't change just because you get into an Associates or Bachelors degree program. I can get the same Paramedic education at a Technical School without all the BS extra classes that have nothing to do with the actual art of being a Paramedic.

Now if you'd like to talk about expanding the technicalities of the job, that's fine. Make a degree program somewhere that doesn't involve wasted days and wasted nights (to quote Freddy Fender) dealing with Comp I and II, Math this or that, American History. Not that those aren't great classes, but they have NOTHING to do with being a competent Paramedic. Your High School education SHOULD have taught you what you need to function properly as a Paramedic as far as Math and English go.

You're just not going to convince me otherwise. I'm all for education. The more education the better (If that's what tickles your pickle). I just don't buy into the whole "Paramedics with degrees are superior than those without" concept. It's been said time and time again on this forum people would rather have a Medic or EMT with street smarts and experience than one fresh out of College. I know we've said it in Law Enforcement countless times. I've heard it in EMS as well.

As far as who I want working on my family or I? I want someone who can do the job and do it well. I don't care what their general educational foundation is. Someone who is confident in their abilities and took their Paramedic program seriously. I could give a crap less about a College degree or not. I don't need someone standing over me correcting my English as I circle the drain. I want a Monkey that knows how to push the damn buttons better than anyone! I said that for dramatic effect, but you get the point.

[Mateo_1387]

You will not learn MORE about being a Paramedic if you get your Associates or even Bachelors degree in it.

That is wrong as wrong can be and so wrong that it was wrong of you to wrong everyone else and say such a wrong.

You learn TONS more of information very much so pertinent to being a professional paramedic if you have an associates or bachelors degree in EMS. I am sorry to tell you this, but 2 or 4 years of paramedic education trumps 700 hours of paramedic training. People with a four year EMS degree definitely trump my two year associates. In college, the classes do not just skim the top, they dive deep into medicine. The more years you study, the more time you have to dive even deeper into medicine.

The only thing you will learn more about is the core classes and whichever electives you decide to take. The Paramedic education doesn't change just because you get into an Associates or Bachelors degree program. I can get the same Paramedic education at a Technical School without all the BS extra classes that have nothing to do with the actual art of being a Paramedic.

Again, you are wrong. The quote I quoted earlier "you don't know what you didn't know until you learn it" applies again. You should attend a bachelors program, and 4 years down the road, you will understand just what we are talking about. Also, as stated before, 700 hours of paramedic training is not the same as 2 or 4 years of education. You obviously have no idea what is taught in a degree program.

Now if you'd like to talk about expanding the technicalities of the job, that's fine. Make a degree program somewhere that doesn't involve wasted days and wasted nights (to quote Freddy Fender) dealing with Comp I and II, Math this or that, American History. Not that those aren't great classes, but they have NOTHING to do with being a competent Paramedic. Your High School education SHOULD have taught you what you need to function properly as a Paramedic as far as Math and English go.

English and math classes are not a waste of time. Just read any EMS report, and ask people to do drug calculation, MAP calculation, Oxygen percentages, and you will start to see where those classes are important. I agree that High school should have prepared you, but I think they are to prepare you for college. Unfortunately, high schools cannot always be relied on to do an adequate job at educating students, that is where college has to pick up slack.

You're just not going to convince me otherwise. I'm all for education. The more education the better (If that's what tickles your pickle).

So you are not willing to change your view? You are unwilling to try anything different? You are not ready to change the way EMS has been run for the last 50 years? Then please leave. Everyone on this forum will tell you that EMS is a changing field. You have to be adaptive and be able to learn new concepts. The need for education being the most important. The rest will fall in place after the education.

Your statements are also contradictive. You say more education is better, yet you are against paramedics with more education? Please make up our mind of which one you want.

I just don't buy into the whole "Paramedics with degrees are superior than those without" concept. It's been said time and time again on this forum people would rather have a Medic or EMT with street smarts and experience than one fresh out of College.

So does that mean that a PA and a Doctor are the same. I mean they are both allopathic in nature, they are both similar in ways, yet a PA can do better than a doctor with two college level years less? NO. The same with paramedics. Years of education does make someone superior in knowledge to someone who lacks the education.

Anyone here will tell you that they would rather have a green paramedic for a partner. A green paramedic has not developed the bad habits that plague EMS. The green medic is still adaptive, and able to conform better. I have been on this forum for two years, and I cannot recall the general consensus being that people would rather have partners with many years of experience.

As far as who I want working on my family or I? I want someone who can do the job and do it well.

Then you want a well educated degreed paramedic.

I don't care what their general educational foundation is. Someone who is confident in their abilities and took their Paramedic program seriously. I could give a crap less about a College degree or not.

Then you must not care much about the care you or your family will receive.

I don't need someone standing over me correcting my English as I circle the drain. I want a Monkey that knows how to push the damn buttons better than anyone! I said that for dramatic effect, but you get the point.

What a load of BS. I do not want some cook book paramonkey who can follow an algorithm. The effects of a paramedic's treatments can be deadly. Even following an algorithm perfectly can be detrimental to a patient. I want an educated paramedic that can make medical decisions that will positively affect my health.

[EMS49393]

You will not learn MORE about being a Paramedic if you get your Associates or even Bachelors degree in it. The only thing you will learn more about is the core classes and whichever electives you decide to take. The Paramedic education doesn't change just because you get into an Associates or Bachelors degree program. I can get the same Paramedic education at a Technical School without all the BS extra classes that have nothing to do with the actual art of being a Paramedic.

You have got to be kidding me. I didn't learn more about being a paramedic than one of the six-month wonders? Oh, let me count the ways...

1. I can do most medication math in my head, without a calculator, accurately, including the mg/kg/min math. A large number of my colleagues can't even figure out the correct dosage of sodium bicarb. Some of them do not even know the dosages of simple medications such as albuterol, Atrovent, lidocaine, etc. They have to rely on calculation tapes, and field guides. Yes, Virginia, there is a need for mathematics.

2. I have no problem understanding what is happening to my patient way down to the cellular level. I understand what capnography means in relationship to how my patient presents. I can recite acid-base balance as it relates to the human being in my sleep. I know and understand the nervous system, parasympathetic/sympathetic, alpha/beta, etc. I know the names and locations of the spinal vertebrae and I know what symptoms a patient will present with when there is a fracture with spinal cord involvement. The six-month paramedic students open the protocol book to the page describing the patients chief complaint and follow the list.

3. I know what certain drugs, either alone, or in combination with other drugs will do to the body.

4. I am able to explain the cardiovascular system, in great detail, including the electrical impulses in the heart. I am able to read a 12 or 15 lead ECG in my sleep, and I know what electrical impulse correlates to what is shown or missing on the ECG. Most of my colleagues are still arguing that a 12-lead in the field "takes to much time, whaaaaaaa." They fail to see the value of a baseline 12-lead and subsequent 12-leads as interventions are performed.

5. I have NEVER been turned down for orders by online medical control. I can carry an intelligent conversation with nurses and doctors regarding my patients. I have NEVER had a nurse or doctor call my supervisor because I didn't treat my patient appropriately. Many of my fellow paramedics have had numerous, documented phone calls. Two paramedics within the past six months have been demoted back to basic and one has been fired.

Don't YOU tell me how useless my college education is. You don't even have one to compare. Don't YOU tell me I have no personal life because I went to college. I get the impression that you are a tiny bit jealous of those of us that did attend college in an attempt to raise our profession just a small bit up the food chain.

Do you know what employees at my hospital do without a college degree? They are janitors and cafeteria workers. You know what the people do that have a college degree? They are nurses, doctors, physical therapists, psychologists, social workers, etc. They are health care PROFESSIONALS.

Incidently, I got married last weekend, but of course, I have no personal life. :roll:

[spenac]

So here goes a shocker. I have changed my stance. There is no need for a degree in EMS. Why? Because EMS is a dieing field. It has failed to progress therefore is doomed to extinction. So I would say do not waste your time on a degree as a USA Paramedic. Just ride out the last days drawing a check, doing trained monkey skills.

[ccmedoc]

You will not learn MORE about being a Paramedic if you get your Associates or even Bachelors degree in it. The only thing you will learn more about is the core classes and whichever electives you decide to take. The Paramedic education doesn't change just because you get into an Associates or Bachelors degree program. I can get the same Paramedic education at a Technical School without all the BS extra classes that have nothing to do with the actual art of being a Paramedic.

Now if you'd like to talk about expanding the technicalities of the job, that's fine. Make a degree program somewhere that doesn't involve wasted days and wasted nights (to quote Freddy Fender) dealing with Comp I and II, Math this or that, American History. Not that those aren't great classes, but they have NOTHING to do with being a competent Paramedic. Your High School education SHOULD have taught you what you need to function properly as a Paramedic as far as Math and English go.

You're just not going to convince me otherwise. I'm all for education. The more education the better (If that's what tickles your pickle). I just don't buy into the whole "Paramedics with degrees are superior than those without" concept. It's been said time and time again on this forum people would rather have a Medic or EMT with street smarts and experience than one fresh out of College. I know we've said it in Law Enforcement countless times. I've heard it in EMS as well.

As far as who I want working on my family or I? I want someone who can do the job and do it well. I don't care what their general educational foundation is. Someone who is confident in their abilities and took their Paramedic program seriously. I could give a crap less about a College degree or not. I don't need someone standing over me correcting my English as I circle the drain. I want a Monkey that knows how to push the damn buttons better than anyone! I said that for dramatic effect, but you get the point.

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[mstovall]

As someone with a BS in Biology and BA, minor in chemistry, physics, over 200 hours of undergrad and 30+ of grad, I can say that I don't see a true need for a 2 year program, aka associates, to practice as a medic.

Selective hiring eliminates those who cannot write legible and intelligible run reports. I know of individuals that have PhD's that cannot write a coherent e-mail, let alone think they would ever be able to learn to write a good narrative.

Mathematics come easier to certain individuals than others. If drug calculations are that important for you to do in your head, we need to eliminate many of our highly trained physicians. Many of these docs rely on PDR's and many of the new programs to do their drug calcs for them.

What we can do is follow the p's of proper marketing. Promote ourselves, properly place our services for ease of use, price the services in a manner to pay employees a living wage, package ourselves (make ourselves readily visible, no t-shirts, no jeans, wear uniforms that reflect professional attire).

If education was the key, then hospital and fire based services would pay accordingly. They would not have a disproportionate pay rate. It is not the education that allows them to be paid more. It is the placement and promotion of service that allows them to draw the higher check.

[VentMedic]

As someone with a BS in Biology and BA, minor in chemistry, physics, over 200 hours of undergrad and 30+ of grad, I can say that I don't see a true need for a 2 year program, aka associates, to practice as a medic.

I can see your opinion of the Paramedic is rather low. Why do you want it to remain just a "tech" job and not join the ranks of all other health professionals who require at least an Associates degree to gain entry? Relying on a few skills and some protocols is truly not enough to be considered a "medical professional" at a national level. An educated individual like yourself should know where even the Associates degree ranks in the world of career seeking professionals of almost any profession in the health care, business and science fields.

This "tech" or "another cert" mentality is what the FDs and private ambulance services have practiced to mill more medics. The philosophy of little education and mass production are what prevent wages from advancing through professional recognition.

If education was the key, then hospital and fire based services would pay accordingly. They would not have a disproportionate pay rate. It is not the education that allows them to be paid more. It is the placement and promotion of service that allows them to draw the higher check.

Not true. You are paid according to your weakest link. If the entry into your profession by state statutes or national (which would be the best) is 700 hours then that is your bargaining power.

Why do you think ALL of the other health care professions have raised their educational levels by National standards? Also, why do you think they use college clock hours and not "career tech school" hours? There is a huge difference in these standards when it comes to consistency in caparative analysis for negotiating worth for professional reimbursement.

A pretty patch or shirt is not going to get the attention of educated professionals who lobby for professional service fees and other legislative issues.

[Asysin2leads]

For every inch of a step we take forward, guys like KSEMT send us back back three yards. Thanks, buddy.

[Ridryder 911]

For every inch of a step we take forward, guys like KSEMT send us back back three yards. Thanks, buddy.

Always amazes me it is those without the education or even the license to tell us "how it should be".. as well that they are in favor for education, as long as one does not go to college or academics... Yeah, that makes sense too?

R/r 911