When are we going to wake up as a profession?

[Eydawn]

Who in the hell has an embedded hidden audio in their post? I've been hunting for it and can't find it! I love it though... Stop being a drama king!

On the marshmallow note, you forgot the graham crackers and chocolate *evil face.*

What KSEMT is saying makes a lot of sense. Now, before you all toast me along with the marshmallows, permit me to explain WHY it makes sense- from where he sits.

If you have never been to college, and your family didn't value college or the only people with degrees that you know are stuck up people who think they're better than you are because they have a degree and have been *educated,* and you *know* you are an intelligent person doing the best you possibly can for your patients, a degree seems superfluous. Ridiculous, even. If you are looked down upon by those with degrees, you grow to hate the entire clan. Trust me. Y'all should meet my first biology professor...

If you are intelligent enough to get by with the thinking skills you've learned through the education forced upon you in K-12, and you really hate the "go jump through hoop XYZ for this reason" mentality that so many colleges have endemic within their systems, there exists little motivation to get a degree, and little motivation to respect those with them. The view from OUTSIDE is *way* different from the view inside... and that goes both ways.

You do not need a college degree to be a critical thinker, or even a decent (note that I didn't say the BEST) medical practitioner. HOWEVER- what the college education does, liberal arts, English composition, history, cultural science, math and all... is teach you to approach things in an integrative fashion.

You learn to get inside many different disciplines... and once you've had enough classes, you find yourself making insightful connections that would NEVER have occurred to you. It teaches your subconscious to put the puzzle pieces together... even if the conscious is screaming "American History since 1970 is boring and I really don't care..." It teaches you to look beneath the surface, and approach things differently.

I am not in any way, shape or form discounting "street experience" as that is a different kind of intelligence. Knowledge that comes from experience is invaluable.

Now, in medicine, the trick is this... the broader your base when you go in, the more you will get out of that experiential learning as you pack on the years. You may be the best button pusher ever... but with a solid understanding of physiology behind you, all of a sudden it gets easier to critically analyze which button to push and WHY, rather than pushing the normal "correct" ones.

Math is important. Calculating drug dosages should have solid mathematical ability behind it- not a memorized set of conversions. English is important- you can't continue to provide care if you get called out on a patient interaction and haven't documented in a fashion that clearly shows what you did and why. Poor trip reports indicate poor care (especially to lawyers who are looking for any reason to get you...) so English composition and spelling are definitely necessary. Even the best writer still needs refinement... Mark Twain still wrote shitty things from time to time...

Social studies, history and philosophy help you integrate those difficult cultural or social contacts. You can have a much more balanced approach to someone with an alternative lifestyle, religious belief, foreign idea... and thus be able to communicate better and provide better care as a result of that communication.

KSEMT, high school *should* teach you how to write effectively and do basic math. You should see some of the COLLEGE papers I'm working with at the senior level in my composition class... we peer edit, and I have to say... I've yet to see anything above an 8th grade level. Maybe one precocious 11th grader in there in terms of writing. The simple fact of the matter is that it doesn't... and unless you can pass a competency exam excusing you from those credits, you really should take them.

Can you be a good paramedic without a college education? Sure. You can be a good one. Will you ever be the best paramedic? Not unless you have other education behind you- self taught, college taken, or otherwise.

The paramedic specific education doesn't change; absolutely correct. But what you are doing is taking classes that have been written by those with all that extra foundation... physicians, nurses, etc.; if you have that foundation as well, you get inside the material to a depth level that is really not possible *without* the foundation. You can work with a piece of heavy machinery, and operate it well, with finesse... but if it breaks, you can't fix it without understanding the pieces.

Paramedic education is currently for the most part missing the most important pieces... and focusing on finessing the physical skills. That's what we want to change. We don't think anyone WITHOUT a degree is stupid, or even an incapable medic. But we want the patient to have the best practitioner possible... and we all know doctors are the penultimate medical practitioners, right?

So *why* do they have all the education, might I ask? They have to take the BS classes that have nothing to do with their actual physical practice... so why do medical schools require it? You could surely train a surgeon with proficient skills without it, right?

It's not the skills. It's the mind behind the skills.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[ccmedoc]

Who in the hell has an embedded hidden audio in their post? I've been hunting for it and can't find it! I love it though... Stop being a drama king!

That would be me....

Its about the only constructive thing I could offer..I didn't believe the posts warranted anything else...

-Just sayin' 8)

[EMS49393]

After reading this thread, I feel the need to beat my head against the wall twice.

Once for not doing the degree route. But I'm going backwards and I'm going to do it.

Second because I have now realized why we will not advance as a profession.

The driftwood needs to be collected and burned in a bonfire. I have the gasoline.

One paramedic at a time. This thread has done its job if it has convinced at least one paramedic how important a solid educational foundation really is. Good luck in college, we know you'll be brilliant!

[steve_emt_68]

Way back when I went to "night" school to be an EMT, I thought there is no way that I would want a "C" student working on me or my family. Then I worked with a partner who was book smart, A+ student Common sense stupid. I'll take the "C" student everytime as long as they have common sense.

Our profession was founded on the principals of being thrown into a situation and think your way out. Common sense rules good EMS providers.

The American Education system doesn't want independent thinkers, they want sheep. They want everyone to do as they are told, don't think just do.

That is why so many people who are independent thinkers are attracted to our profession. We have the freedom to be our own persons and use our brains.

College education will only weed out the independent thinkers and force them to go into other career paths.

I don't work in a mother may I system, I work where I have a set of very liberal protocols and a very large drug bag and I am expected to use it as I see necessary.

Perhaps in the mother may I systems the college educated sheep would be beneficial, in my part of the world, no thanks. I'll take the "C" student with the common sense.

[BushyFromOz]

So, steve. If you had to have a degree or a diploma in paramedicine instead of your night school to get your paramedic qualification would you have put in the time and effort?

[VentMedic]

The American Education system doesn't want independent thinkers, they want sheep. They want everyone to do as they are told, don't think just do.

That is why so many people who are independent thinkers are attracted to our profession. We have the freedom to be our own persons and use our brains.

College education will only weed out the independent thinkers and force them to go into other career paths.

You are comparing your EMT class with the "American Education System"?

A "C" grade in an EMT class may also represent someone who is not motivated enough to get a "B" regardless of commonsense.

Many people are attracted to EMS because out of all of the healthcare professions, there are few requirements for entry. Next to phlebotomist and CNA, it is also has the shortest time in training. At 700 hours, the Paramedic program at a Medic Mill follows closely to their minimum time in training for number of "hours". As the flashy ads say "in just a few weeks you too can work on an ambulance". If you sign up for classes at an EMT or Medic Mill, they will even fill out the paperwork for you. All you have to be able to do is sign your name on the loan.

Your "independent thinking" also comes from protocols and state statutes writtened by college educated physicians , lawyers, advisors and board members including RNs.

[steve_emt_68]

No, I am not comparing EMT to school to the "American" education system. I look at what all schools want from their students matter of fact what most employers want from their employees... SHEEP! follow along don't ask questions go about blindly do what you are told without asking. In a truely effective EMS system you want... NO YOU NEED independent thinkers who can make a decision based on what they see or hear or smell or sense.

They do not teach this in school, book smarts don't help.

Like I previously said EMS is attrative to independent thinkers who know how to make decisions without someone standing over them telling them what to do.

People who need to have someone tell them what to do are called NURSES!!!

[VentMedic]

People who need to have someone tell them what to do are called NURSES!!!

I guess you haven't met many RNs during your time as an EMT. Of course, you may not have ventured much past the ED doorsteps either. To make a comment like that undermines any credibility you could have brought to the argument.

Do you know how many clinical hours RNs and other healthcare students pursuing a degree spend at the patient's bedside besides all of the "book learning" stuff? Probably not since you make comments based only from your own limited learning.

If you want to compare clinic hours 1:1 for EMS providers as the educational standard stands now with any other profession (including Nursing) you will find that EMS is lacking by about 1200 - 2000 hours behind the other professions. Even accountants must spend more hours with "hands-on internships" than many Paramedic programs.

BTW, do you know why an EMT or Paramedic's protocol book is also referred to as a "recipe book"?

Unfortunately......

[steve_emt_68]

Wrong, many of my best fiends are nurses, I date a nurse. I work in an ER and help on the nursing floor when not on calls. I know what I can do in the field and what I have to wait for an order to do when in house.

EMS providers get it done in the field without having someone tell us to tart an IV or give adenosine or take a blood sugar. When I work the ER I have to call the doctor to get an order to start a line or get a 12 lead EKG.

My point all along is that as EMS providers we need to be independent thinkers, having a college education will not make us better providers.

The answer to many of EMS problems is funding as stated earlier in the thread. The other problem is the way we act as professionals. Having lived in a college town for the first 30 years of my life, I can tell you that being a college grad didn't make you any more mature or respected than the kid who went to technical school or who got a job right out of high school. Matter of fact, I was the kid who went to technical school and then worked a blue collar job. I did get pretty good service from the college grads at Mc Donalds at lunch time!

IF WE WANT TO BE VIEWED AS PROFESSIONALS WE MUST ACT LIKE PROFESSIONALS!

No matter the education we receive the way we behave, dress, speak and act will dictate how people view us.

[JakeEMTP]

My point all along is that as EMS providers we need to be independent thinkers, having a college education will not make us better providers.

Here we go again.

Having a college education as a Paramedic gives you a more in depth understanding of what's really going on with our patient's. 2 semesters of A & P as opposed to a few chapters in a textbook, I believe helps us as independent thinkers, make better decisions regarding treatment. English composition helps with PCR writing and verbal reporting at the ED, and microbiology might be helpful in decision making, but that's just a guess :roll:. Instead of "Pt. presents like this, Do this", I am able to treat accordingly.

In our protocols, the word "consider" appears many, many times. Our Medical Director trusts us to make good decisions. Before we can even work in this County, we have to do a oral scenario based interview with the Medical Director. If we went in there reciting protocols, yeah, he may credential you locally, but he won't be happy. If we going in there and explain why we are doing something, or giving a particular medication and the expected effect on the patient, that is what he wants to see. 2-3 chapters of A & P or 1 or 2 chapters on Pharmacology can't possibly prepare you properly. This is pre-hospital medicine not putting a burger together. Get the education or move on.

I refrained from posting in this thread until now, but the temptation got the best of me. Quite frankly, I'm tired of it. Those without a degree as a Paramedic will always try and find ways to say it isn't helpful when it comes to treating a patient. Those of us that are degreed will continue to show them the error in their thinking, but those attempts always prove to be in vain.