When are we going to wake up as a profession?

[letmesleep]

IF WE WANT TO BE VIEWED AS PROFESSIONALS WE MUST ACT LIKE PROFESSIONALS?

hmmmmm........

Wouldn't a professional want to be as educated in his/her field of practice as possible? Or are we just "looking" like professionals?

[EMS49393]

"Steve"

What college did you attend and did you graduate? You seem to have a really poor opinion of those of us that went to college. Just asking.

Do the nurses you work with know you berate them publicly on this forum? Just asking.

I work in a service with a parapuppy mill. They are the worst paramedics I have ever encountered. They are positively stumped when a patient presents in a fashion inconsistent with their protocol book. If they just a good foundation in science, they might actually be able to treat the patient that does not conform to their cookbook. If they were able to form a coherent run report, they might spend less time in litigation, or the CQI office. We might get better reimbursement from insurance companies as well. If only...

I also work in an ER. Actually, I work in the ER more than I work on the ambulance because I like being around people that I can hold an intelligent conversation with. I respect our nurses. Our physicians respect our nurses. We often have the IV established, labs drawn, and the ECG performed before the physician even sees the patient. I don't know where you work, but our Doctors appreciate a quick 12-lead handed to them just before they go in to assess the patient.

If I'm correct, and I often am, I'd say that you never set foot within the doors of a college. I'd say that the providers that have gone to college hurt your feelings when they are able to hold a discussion about patient care that is over your head. I'd say you like that "C" provider because they have no chance of overshadowing you and making you look like a buffoon.

I also call BS on your statements about the ER. Most emergency room nurses have protocols, just as we do, for initiating treatment on the patient. I doubt your nurses (that probably out-number your physicians 5-1) stand around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the doctor to tell them that it is okay to perform a 12-lead, or start an IV. Especially with the new door to balloon time window for the acute STEMI patient, to name one acute life-threatening emergency.

What are you afraid of? The educated provider? The trend is going to change, hopefully in my lifetime, and we will all have to have a college degree. Personally, I can't wait. I look forward to the day when I can go to work and be proud instead of being embarrassed.

[steve_emt_68]

Why are you embarassed? is it because you can't carry on an intellegant conversation with your partners or because of the care they provide?

I have worked with college educated paramedics who scare the hell out of me. They only get the minimum required hours of continuing education. They have the attitude about new things that "I don't know anything about that because I didn't learn it in school". Are these college educated paramedic's PROFESSIONALS? I don't believe they are. Is the guy who took 2 years to take night classes to get his paramedic license less of a professional? What if he goes and takes every extra class possible? How about once he gets his CCEMT-P?

Does that make him a professional?

I ask all of you, Where exactly in your ambulance do you hang your college diploma?

I have never had a patient ask me if I went to college or which college I went to.

My point is that the public judges us on our actions. The ER judges us on our actions and dress. Try walking into a busy ER in jeans and a t-shirt and have your EMT-B partner come in with dress white shirt and EMS pants, see who the nurses talk to for report.

I will not disagree with you that the more knowlege we have about the human body the better off our patient's will be in the long run, does taking a class in art history really help you in the field.

Education is the foundation of our professon, a college degree is not the answer. Professionalism amoungst our providers is the key. We both have differn't approaches to professionalism, mine being personal responsibility. As a profession, we must weed out those who are lazy, carefree and only in it for the money. I would consider this to be the first step in becoming a profession.

As far as belittling the nurses whom I work with, I don't belive I belittled them. I stated facts, In the field if a patient needs Adenosine I give it, If they have pain, I can control it. If my patient needs RSI, I do it. I don't ask for permission, I evaluate, assess and act.

In the ER if my patient needs Adenosine, I call the on-call Doc, inform him of what is going on and wait for his orders. If they need RSI, I call the Doc and when he tells me I call the CRNA.

If you would take the majority of nurses and put them in a cold, dark and wet ditch in an upside down car they wouldn't know where to begin. Try having two nurses run a code and see how that goes. Most nurses will tell you that they wouldn't want our jobs which is fine, I don't want theirs.

[KSEMT122]

Eydawn- Thank you for trying to take the time to look through my narrow minded eyes. I respect what you said and will ponder it. The only reason I will give it a second thought is because you have chosen a road above the others and not engaged me in a personal attack. So thank you for that.

As far as everybody else goes...the heck with ya. If you so called "professionals" can't hold an intelligent conversation without lashing out irrationally at people with opposite views then I fail to see how you could be any good to anyone during an emergency. In the course of one topic I have lost all respect for people I have admired on this site for 3.5 years plus. It is disappointing, but that must be the difference everyone keeps talking about between college grads and non college grads. College taught you that ONLY YOU can be right and all others are wrong. What a waste of money. I could have taught you that for free.

So let's address my personal reasons for not being big on REQUIRING a degree in EMS. Someone mentioned money, yes that is part of it. I pride myself on having a good credit rating and not going into debt, ANY type of debt including student loans. Time, my time is valuable, I'd rather stick to the facts of being a Paramedic than spend half of my time learning why Ghandi wiped his butt with his left hand, but wrote with his right. Motivation- In all reality if I wanted to enter a career that required a College degree I'd be a Lawyer instead and make 5 times what Paramedics make. Why would I want to spend the money, time, and effort in getting a college degree to make a whopping $40,000 a year? EMS will NEVER pay people what they deserve degree or not. So there ya go folks. Talk down to me please. Insult my intelligence. Make personal attacks. You are just making my case.

DOWN WITH DEGREES!!! UP WITH MONKEYS!!!!!!

[EMS49393]

Wow. I can't even reply to that, mostly because it's incredibly difficult to read a post that does not have proper paragraphs, punctuation, etc. Get back to me when you graduate from college.

[Lone Star]

At the risk of getting beat up by the college medics...I only have this to say:

I checked into the local college here that offers "Paramedic Technology" course and of the prerequisites, I found several that could be better off forgotten about, or traded for more relevant courses to the field of Para-medicine. I offer the following examples:

General Core Courses

Course Name: Composition & Rhetoric I

Course Credits: 5

Course Description: Explores the analysis of literature and articles about issues in the humanities and in society. Students practice various modes of writing argumentation and persuasion. The course includes a review of standard grammatical and stylistic usage in proofreading and editing. An introduction to library resources lays the foundation for research. Topics include: writing analysis and practice

Course Name: Literature & Composition II

Course Credits: 5

Course Description: Emphasizes the student's ability to read literature analytically and meaningfully and to communicate clearly. Students analyze the form and content of literature and practice various modes of writing. Topics include: reading and analysis of fiction writing about literature.

OR

Course Name: Introduction to Humanities

Course Credits: 5

Course Description: Explores the philosophic and artistic heritage of humanity expressed through a historical perspective on visual arts. The humanities are presented as a source of subjective insights for the understanding of people and society. Topics include: historical and cultural developments contributions of the humanities.

Fundamental Courses

Course Name: Computer Concepts & Applications

Course Credits: 3

Course Description: Provides an introduction to the Internet and computing concepts as well as application and operating system software. Topics include: history of computers; computer hardware and software; data hierarchy; use of word processing software; computer operating systems; history and overview of the Internet data communications.

I think rather than study the history of the computer, visual arts or current events, this time (a minimum of 18 credit hours) could be better utilized studying for more 'relevant' courses that actually apply to the field of study.

I don’t see how being able to read “Portrait Of Dorian Gray” and being able to philosophically discuss it from the protagonists point of view is really going to be able to increase a patient’s survivability of a gsw.

Exactly how will knowing and understanding the philosophy and artistic heritage of humanity going to help you remember the proper dosages and effects of your pharmacological arsenal?

How will knowing and understanding computing concepts or knowing how operating system software help treat a cardiac patient, or understand what you’re seeing on an ECG/EKG strip, or treat a drug overdose?

Now before anyone tries to beat me up with the old “These courses make for a more well rounded medic!”; let’s be honest here….you CANNOT teach someone to be ‘well rounded’ by forcing them to do book reports on literature that they don’t really want to read in the first place, and you sure can’t teach ‘well roundedness’ out of a textbook!

I agree with those that feel that higher educational standards should be required for the field of EMS to progress, and to ultimately be viewed as a ‘professional health care field’, I think that we should be able to gear the college courses to be more ‘relevant’ to the chosen field of study.

Course description can be viewed here:

Savannah Tech

[Sir Andrew]

Yes Eydawn thank you for your input not only is it helpful to this topic but also has helped me in picking classes for my non-EMS degree (web Design) so I don't just take what classes seem easy or fun but what classes will give me the best over all education that I can then aply to all areas of my life.

And for the rest of you I have some questions

What do you wish your training classes would have coved more indeepth?

What did you have to study on your own to beable to pass the test?

What did you have to learn once you were working as an EMT that you feel should have been part of your class?

What do you wish your training classes would have coved more indeepth?

What did you have to study on your own to beable to pass the test?

What did you have to learn once you were working as an medic that you feel should have been part of your class?

Are there any skills that you feel should have be recovered as in medic class that are your basic skills?

Are there any skills that you feel would be helpful to you as a medic if an EMT-B knew them?

Now please don't talk any thing about college vs. non-college but just your basic training classes.

[KSEMT122]

I don’t see how being able to read “Portrait Of Dorian Gray” and being able to philosophically discuss it from the protagonists point of view is really going to be able to increase a patient’s survivability of a gsw.

Exactly how will knowing and understanding the philosophy and artistic heritage of humanity going to help you remember the proper dosages and effects of your pharmacological arsenal?

How will knowing and understanding computing concepts or knowing how operating system software help treat a cardiac patient, or understand what you’re seeing on an ECG/EKG strip, or treat a drug overdose?

Now before anyone tries to beat me up with the old “These courses make for a more well rounded medic!”; let’s be honest here….you CANNOT teach someone to be ‘well rounded’ by forcing them to do book reports on literature that they don’t really want to read in the first place, and you sure can’t teach ‘well roundedness’ out of a textbook!

I agree with those that feel that higher educational standards should be required for the field of EMS to progress, and to ultimately be viewed as a ‘professional health care field’, I think that we should be able to gear the college courses to be more ‘relevant’ to the chosen field of study.

](*,)

Advanced education directly related to EMS I would be for. Thank you for putting into words what I apparently could not.

[Just Plain Ruff]

For Medics

What do you wish your training classes would have coved more indeepth? Everything

What did you have to study on your own to beable to pass the test? Grays Anatomy, Physiology Textbook that my Girlfriend the Doctor gave me and several other of her medical texts

What did you have to learn once you were working as an medic that you feel should have been part of your class? Had to learn it all over again because there was just not enough time spent on anything.

Are there any skills that you feel should have be recovered as in medic class that are your basic skills? Airway Airway Airway

Are there any skills that you feel would be helpful to you as a medic if an EMT-B knew them?

Setting up all of the equipment with a blindfold on, better driving skills

[Just Plain Ruff]

Ok, I've weighed in on this a couple of times and everyone's opinions are valid either to them or to some others.

AS for education - these are my thoughts.

If we as a profession require an associates then by golly you should have to get all the classes that are offered and required by that associates degree.

I don't see the RN's bitching and moaning about having to take the humanities classes, the composition classes and the other non-nursing classes. If it's required for your program then you take them.

I do say that we can get away from some of the requirements by providing additional EMS level educaiton that could be substituted. But if you are expecting an AS degree then you do what every other student who is going after their AS degrees and you take the required courses. What makes you so special to be able to not have to take the classes that every other AS degree candidate has to take? Nothing at all.

If we as a profession want to be recognized as one, then we need to step up the plate and suggest that an AS degree is the minimum for paramedic. If we want to be recognized as a degree'd profession then we need to accept that the AS is where we are going to start at.

Nurses start at the AS degree level and progress upwards.

and here is one novel thought, if you ever want to go back and get your RN think of how much closer you would be if you stopped bitching long enough to realize that your basic pre-reqs (which never expire - history, math, english comp and many others).

I find that the basic knee jerk reactions of "Oh no, not a degree, it's too much work" or it's not fair just doesn't cut it here.

I've already pointed out the levels of those out there who don't want to go the extra mile to get the education that they need and might be required for work as a medic.

But go ahead and continue to resist the degree aspect of this movement and you do nothing to further the cause of our quest for better educated medics and emt's.

Either get on the bus or get out of the way. Either which way, eventually the bus is gonna leave, with or with out you, Do you want to be on the bus or thrown under it?

You decide.