Signed refusal, or no EMS?

[Just Plain Ruff]

Yes, whoever you made contact with you get refusals from. If you made contact with all but one of them then you do refusals on all but one of them.

What does your employer say?

No matter how many patients are involved in an incident you get refusals on all the ones you personally talk to. Your partner does the same to those he talks to. Any others from your agency who make contact with those you don't get to they get refusals for those.

Let me ask you this, what do you think should be done? Do you think you should get refusals from those who you make contact with but do not have any injuries.

Put it this way, you make contact with 99 people on the bus that you mention earlier. You find out that all 99 are saying they are not hurt. You then clear for service and go back to base not filling out a single refusal.

2 hours later one of those uninjured patients turns out to actually be significantly injured. They now sue you for negligence. You say, "Hey, they said they weren't hurt so I cleared for service" The patient suffers injury. You have no documentation saying you saw them, no documentation that says you looked them over. They say you just asked if they were ok but didn't ask them any more questions. How do you refute what they are saying from what really happened.

It's your word against theirs. Juries are notably sympathetic to injured persons or there wouldn't be 250 pages of lawyers in the phone book. 12 pages of lawyers in a phone book that covers a county of 12000 people.

You will lose if you don't have the documentation to prove it so once again I ask, what is your opinion on this issue, you asked us now I'm asking you.

[sevenball]

Don't make this personal Ruff, it was simply a question of opinion. To answer your first question, my service allows flexibilty depending on the situation. As long as there is a piece of paperwork generated to prove that we responded, that is what they require. What they would like to see done is a refusal for every pt. contact, that is what I do, obtain a refusal for every pt. contact.

My own opinion on the matter is that if there is no injury, there is no pt. HOWEVER! in this highly litigious society, it would be a risky venture to navigate that tightrope. In the interest of my own career, my opinion is to obtain a refusal, even if in my heart of hearts, I don't even agree with myself.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Don't make this personal Ruff, it was simply a question of opinion. To answer your first question, my service allows flexibilty depending on the situation. As long as there is a piece of paperwork generated to prove that we responded, that is what they require. What they would like to see done is a refusal for every pt. contact, that is what I do, obtain a refusal for every pt. contact.

My own opinion on the matter is that if there is no injury, there is no pt. HOWEVER! in this highly litigious society, it would be a risky venture to navigate that tightrope. In the interest of my own career, my opinion is to obtain a refusal, even if in my heart of hearts, I don't even agree with myself.

not sure where you got the idea I was making this personal. Never intended for you to think I was making this personal. I'd sure like to know how I'm making this personal.

But that being said. All I was simply asking was what your personal opinion was about thsi issue. You came here asking our opinions yet you had not made your opinion or ideas clear.

If that is what you thought I was making personal then there was nothing of the sort intended.

I've seen on message boards people who come in asking for opinions and in the end the real motive behind there requests was to get ammunition to go to their management and say "this is what they do elsewhere" I'm not saying that is what you were here doing but I will be honest, it crossed my mind.

I still stand by everything I have said here, if you make contact no matter if they are injured or not they are still a patient.

I'm sorry if you felt I was attacking you because that could not be further from the case.

I hope you get other answers from others than me. But my answers stand, agree or disagree.

[sevenball]

You will lose if you don't have the documentation to prove it so once again I ask, what is your opinion on this issue, you asked us now I'm asking you.

One of the problems with forums is the inability to look at someones face and hear the inflection in their voices. This line here, if lent to my own interpretation, sounds like you were getting a little heated. If that was not your intention, my apologies. I will give up my first born for reperations. You're correct in saying that I do not intend on using this information to battle my management, I was just curious to see what the rest of the community thought on the situation. Even if I force myself to agree with you, I'd respect yours, and everyone elses opinion regardless on which side of the fence you sit on.

Given my earlier posting of the definition of a patient, I believe, that if you don't complain of anything, you aren't a patient at all. If that were the case, I would have to obtain a refusal from everyone I met on the street when I aske them "how are you today?" and they reply, " Crappy, I twisted my ankle a couple of minutes ago". By definition, I have made contact with a pt., even if they say "but I'm fine now, I have no pain".

[akroeze]

What about special event coverage? Do you have to get a refusal for transport for every band-aid you hand out? You provided care but didn't transport.

[Chief1C]

If you questioned them about their injuries, you need to document that; and to cover your ass, you should get a refusal signed.

[Just Plain Ruff]

Actually one service I worked for made the crews that covered those types of events do just that. It was a bls service and the person who asked for a bandaid had to sign a waiver of liability and a refusal. Needless to say, they didn't do too many events after that when enough people complained.

But I think refusals should really only be signed when you respond to a the call. Not special event coverage.

[akroeze]

Actually one service I worked for made the crews that covered those types of events do just that. It was a bls service and the person who asked for a bandaid had to sign a waiver of liability and a refusal. Needless to say, they didn't do too many events after that when enough people complained.

But I think refusals should really only be signed when you respond to a the call. Not special event coverage.

Does the law differentiate?

[sevenball]

there is a difference between getting a signature, and documenting your findings. I'd agree that if you're going to write a good report, it's just as easy to get a signature. Every refusal, regardless of whether or not you got a signature or not, should have superior documentation. However, in the event that you use an electronic PCR, it becomes a gigantic hassle to open up new reports for every patient just to gain a signature. It is far easier to clear with no EMS, and write your report later with your findings.

[afib]

I may be corrected here but I believe in Canada once you start assessing a possible patient you have "Made a relationship"

damm i knew there was something funky going on upthere!!! :twisted: