Emergency Services Mortality?

[sevenball]

The only thing silly about the statement is that you believe that there aren't exceptions to every rule. Clearly, anyone who has worked in urban EMS would agree that we lump our poor into low income housing, you failed to mention my point being spot on there. Also, those who are lower on the socio-economic plane tend not to be able to afford to pay for his or her own doctors visits, and surely cannot afford to eat healthy. I too was once without health insurance. The difference was that I was employed making decent money and could afford to take care of myself.

My "broad generalization" as you put it, wasn't broad at all. It actually was very specific. Targeted to those individuals on the lower end of the poverty scale. In the future, please be sure to read all postings completely before taking extreme exception to a comment, someone may call you on it and it will only make you look silly.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I agree this is like any other thread on this forum, we start on one thing and then we move off to another totally different slant. Is this productive, yes at times it is, at other times it is not.

I think that since a generalization was made about everyone without healthcare being less healthy and using EMS more I took exception to that blanket statement.

In no way did I try to hijack the thread.

[Eydawn]

Children! Knock it off! Lol....

Sorry mack, I read it the same way... those w/o health insurance all abuse the EMS system etc. and it seemed fairly broad to me... just sayin'.

So are we talking socioeconomic status and poverty affecting our system, or universal healthcare? They're not one and the same... and how does that tie into mortality rates of EMS providers? What about somewhere like South Africa... do their EMS providers die a lot too? They have a huge poor population there...

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[sevenball]

my point in saying what I said, was to state that we are not a universal healthcare country, which causes the poorest of folks to use the emergency services more. That in turn causes a higher response rate, which in turn makes us exposed to dangers more often. Nothing more, nothing less. Healthcare discussions aside, I was merely pointing out a contributing factor. To think that there isn't a grey area there is obsurd. Especially considering that we as medical providers live in the grey, thinking any other way would be far to narrow, and perhaps we should all become statisticians instead.

[JakeEMTP]

I think sevenball has a point when he uses the lack of healthcare/insurance argument. It is unfortunate and somewhat hard to believe that in the year 2008 we have citizens without some sort of insurance or access to healthcare. I believe lack of proper individual healthcare increases our call volume without question. I don't however believe it to the the lone contributing factor in EMS incidents.

Public education as to how to take proper care of themselves is key. I know of several agencies that are trying to take this route, but if the public won't listen or even try to educate themselves, well..........

Somehow, someway, we have to eliminate the wacker factor.

EVOC classes should be mandatory. I'll go as far as say they should be part of the national curriculum. We could add it to the " Ambulance Operations " section of EMT-B classes.

We have to stop sending or calling for helicopters every fricking time there is major MVC etc. They are overused and this needs to stop. We are professionals. We need to act like it.

The law of averages say that the more calls you run, the better the chance of being involved in a accident. All we can do is drive according to the road conditions, be aware of our surroundings at all times and be watchful of the other guy. Mirrors are there for a reason. Use them.

Good topic Timmy. 8)

disclaimer: No reference was intended to people who do take care of themselves. I have health insurance and very seldom use it other than annual check-ups. I do however, enjoy the security it provides.

[paramedicmike]

My comments about keeping things on track were more directed to the individual who admitted he didn't know enough about the topic to talk about it and who then proceeded to make broad, general and borderline ignorant statements requiring the smackdown from the rest of the more thoughtful participants in this thread.

I've been around long enough to know how thread topics can vary widely, thank you.

-be safe

[Just Plain Ruff]

Mike, you've been around, I don't believe it.

I didn't mean to direct my last at you, it was more towards the general group rather than you or anyone in particular.

:wink:

[dougd]

The point that I was trying to get across was that if you have poor healthcare, then you tend to use emergency services more often. If you use services more often, then you increase the potential for tragedy by whatever percentage of usage that you have. Those folks in Australia don't need to worry about healthcare because it's all the same. Therefore, you can get regular preventative care, thus reducing the need for emergency services, decreasing the potential for tragedy.

I'm just not buying that argument. The onus is as much on you as on me to prove your argument. Yes, the more hours you spent behind the wheel of a vehicle, the more likely you are to be involved in a collision. However, there are plenty of companies that operate vehicles all day long without killing off their employees or other motorists - take just about any transportation or freight hauling company as an example. If you want to reduce the number of accident related fatalities in US EMS services, better driver training would appear to have a more direct result on achieving the desired outcome than universal healthcare.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11446540

"Most crashes (202/339) and fatalities (233/405) occurred during emergency use. These crashes occurred significantly more often at intersections..."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1015550...ogdbfrom=pubmed

"During the four-year study period, 109 fatal ambulance crashes occurred producing 126 deaths... Seventy-five fatal crashes (69%) occurred during emergency use (EU) and 34 fatal crashes (31%) occurred during nonemergency use (NEU)."

Based on that data, if you want to reduce the number of ambulance crashes in the United States, take the lights and sirens off the vehicles since we obviously don't know how to drive with them on.

[sevenball]

dougd, I can't buy into that argument either. Hauling freight is a completely different occupation. Big rig drivers don't blow through red lights, they don't create the anxiety that an ambulance does running with lights and sirens.

I don't know that it has so much to do with the lights and sirens though. I think that most companies have adopted some form of emergency vehicle operators course that they employ. I would argue that there are a great number of us who are certified emergency vehcile operators, and have good insticts and reflexes. Unfortunately, the general public hasn't taken the same course we have. There is a section of the population that hasn't even taken a drivers education course in high school. That may also contribute to driver reaction. In the end, if we as operators cannot control our speeds, and cannot adapt to the unpredictable driving of the public, we will increase the chances of an accident.

[Just Plain Ruff]

dougd, I can't buy into that argument either. Hauling freight is a completely different occupation. Big rig drivers don't blow through red lights, they don't create the anxiety that an ambulance does running with lights and sirens.

I don't know that it has so much to do with the lights and sirens though. I think that most companies have adopted some form of emergency vehicle operators course that they employ. I would argue that there are a great number of us who are certified emergency vehcile operators, and have good insticts and reflexes. Unfortunately, the general public hasn't taken the same course we have. There is a section of the population that hasn't even taken a drivers education course in high school. That may also contribute to driver reaction. In the end, if we as operators cannot control our speeds, and cannot adapt to the unpredictable driving of the public, we will increase the chances of an accident.

Seven how long have you been in EMS?

Some of the worst accidents have been caused by big-rigs busting the lights.

Had a terrible accident at a previous job where the big rig ran the red because it didn't want to slow down to stop and then have to start back up. 2 people lost their lives because a big rig busted the light.

You have to quit while you are ahead buddy, some of your arguments are just plain out there. (big rigs don't run thru red lights, I had to stifle a laugh)

Have you ever been at an intersection where a big rig is barreling down and actually speeding up to beat the red? I can say for sure that they do indeed create anxiety, at least you might survive getting hit by an ambulance but go up against a big rig and you are DEAD!!!!

Please, quit while you are ahead or at least think about your answers or posts before you post them.

In other words, as a friend of mine said when I put my foot in my mouth "Think McFly, Think"