Hospital settles for childs death, faults EMTParamedic

[VentMedic]

If they were not, RNs would have been staffing ambulances from the begining.

They were. Know your history. They also have been involved in the education and training of the Paramedic. Many Paramedic programs and EMS state offices still have RNs in management or educational postions.

[ECC]

They were. Know your history. They also have been involved in the education and training of the Paramedic. Many Paramedic programs and EMS state offices still have RNs in management or educational positions.

Guess we are gonna slug it out for the want of understanding huh? You know what I meant. No need to be quite so literal. I have a phenomenal hold of our history, thanks for your concern. RNs were never the most populous Pre-Hospital Provider.

As for who manages the State EMS Offices...well I have no control over that, but suffice it to say, Id rather see an MD (with Pre-Hospital experience) or an EMT-P (degreed, of course...no 6 month wonders need apply) there. You don't see us trying to run RNs licensing boards right?

[VentMedic]

Guess we are gonna slug it out for the want of understanding huh? You know what I meant. No need to be quite so literal. I have a phenomenal hold of our history, thanks for your concern. RNs were never the most populous Pre-Hospital Provider.

As for who manages the State EMS Offices...well I have no control over that, but suffice it to say, Id rather see an MD (with Pre-Hospital experience) or an EMT-P (degreed, of course...no 6 month wonders need apply) there. You don't see us trying to run RNs licensing boards right?

No, Paramedics, as a whole, do not have the education level to be on RN boards. You should become more familiar with how your state EMS office operates. Until more people become involved and know the basics of how their own state system functions, very few advancements will ever happen to this profession.

RNs are again re-emerging into prehospital and out of hospital transport.

They have been part of Flight HEMS, CCT and Specialty transports for several decades. RNs have had to ride along with the Paramedics for interfacility transports for many years because the Paramedic on the truck could not even monitor certain drips or equipment. RNs are involved EMS volunteer agencies with various state statutes that allow them. RNs in some states even have their own certification for PreHospital.

EMS needs to focus on creating its own identity and stop with "just like them" stuff. Nursing has its act together and if EMS doesn't get its act together soon, nurses may have to come to our rescue.

I see you have the flag of Ireland. I can not speak for that country if that is where you are from. I am only talking about the EMS system in the U.S.

[medic2005]

Nice to see another NR this and Paragod wanna be spouting off about comments made by someone who is under their 2 year wanna be a nurse degree.

What is that all about couldn't cut it as a nurse boy?

I meant to say it keeps the skills fresh, for Triage, and what does it matter if I asked a nurse to look at the patient?

I bet you called medical control when you have a situation that requires someone else to make the decision didn't you? Ah maybe the doctor should be treating that patient and not you?

[ECC]

Ventmedic,

I have been a US citizen of Irish decent all my life, thanks. Next to my name says I am from Mile High...Denver to be exact. I posted earlier that my education and experience trumps most RNs except perhaps BSRNs...you will have to look that up.

I know exactly how my current State EMS Office functions (or should I say dysfunctions) as well as New York's Office of EMS...how that is germain to this subject still baffles me. I am aware that some EMT-Ps have had to be 'supervised' by RNs on interfacility transports and Specialty Transports. Those are not germain to this discussion either. Just because RNs are chosen to take a specialty referral from a hospital to a specialty care center because the level of care is not within the scope of the paramedic assigned, does not increase their representation in the population of Pre-Hospital Care Providers. Nurses are not Primarily Pre-Hospital Care Providers. Just because a handful ride Specialty Referral Ambualnces or Medevacs is immaterial.

My point is, and remains, there are many pre-hospital care providers who are certified to the Paramedic level who are just as educated as AASRNs. Simply because I have an 'EMT-P' behind my name does not mean I deserve less respect as someone who has the same ammount of education as I do.

Furthermore, RNs have a different job than we (Paramedics) do. They may ride Medevacs (with Paramedics) or Specialty Referral Ambulances, but they do not make up the great majority of those responding to 911 assignments.

[letmesleep]

May I interrupt this discussion for a moment?

Vent, I will agree that RNs have their "act" together, but they are a profession that has been around for what, 200+ years or so? The fact that they are sitting on EMS boards is (in my opinion) a good thing, but what is the adversity to moving US as a system in to the next phase, or as you put it:

"EMS needs to focus on creating its own identity and stop with "just like them" stuff."

Nursing is a field that comes from a long history of being held back by the MD if I'm not mistaken and has come a very long way to get where they are today, so why is it that if they have so much more education (which I will agree that they do) do they not push for EMS to get better educated and create our identity? Nurses have been there and know what it takes, but as I'm sure many medics here and out on the street will agree on, we are looked down upon much like nurses were by MDs of the past. Why is it that we can't do hospital triage? Is it because we are uneducated? Then teach us! I have never understood what the big mystery of knowledge is. If I can (as a paramedic) do something in the street to better a PTs outcome, then why is it the RNs and the MDs don't want to take the time to teach? Look at the history behind 12 leads in the field, what was the big hang up there? hell, even ER docs have to get them read by a cardiologist, but they still start care based off the 12 lead and Hx, don't they?

As far as the attacks on Vent in regards to RN vs EMT-P. Vent is dead on the money here and really we as a profession need to take a closer look at our education. What are we going to do about it? Are we going to just continue to sit here and spout off at Vent, or get some progressive changes made to our career choice? RNs are being seen more out in the street in many different areas besides just special needs transports, and if we intend on surviving as EMTs and medics then WE need to figure ourselves out as stated. If things keep going the way they are, WE could easily be replaced by RNs.......have NO doubt!

[ECC]

May I interrupt this discussion for a moment?

Vent, I will agree that RNs have their "act" together, but they are a profession that has been around for what, 200+ years or so? The fact that they are sitting on EMS boards is (in my opinion) a good thing, but what is the adversity to moving US as a system in to the next phase, or as you put it:

"EMS needs to focus on creating its own identity and stop with "just like them" stuff."

Nursing is a field that comes from a long history of being held back by the MD if I'm not mistaken and has come a very long way to get where they are today, so why is it that if they have so much more education (which I will agree that they do) do they not push for EMS to get better educated and create our identity? Nurses have been there and know what it takes, but as I'm sure many medics here and out on the street will agree on, we are looked down upon much like nurses were by MDs of the past. Why is it that we can't do hospital triage? Is it because we are uneducated? Then teach us! I have never understood what the big mystery of knowledge is. If I can (as a paramedic) do something in the street to better a PTs outcome, then why is it the RNs and the MDs don't want to take the time to teach? Look at the history behind 12 leads in the field, what was the big hang up there? hell, even ER docs have to get them read by a cardiologist, but they still start care based off the 12 lead and Hx, don't they?

As far as the attacks on Vent in regards to RN vs EMT-P. Vent is dead on the money here and really we as a profession need to take a closer look at our education. What are we going to do about it? Are we going to just continue to sit here and spout off at Vent, or get some progressive changes made to our career choice? RNs are being seen more out in the street in many different areas besides just special needs transports, and if we intend on surviving as EMTs and medics then WE need to figure ourselves out as stated. If things keep going the way they are, WE could easily be replaced by RNs.......have NO doubt!

Interesting thoughts, and you are not really iterrupting. I am not taking swipes @ Vent...pointing out some misconceptions...and perhaps lack of communication.

I am not against education, rather I am against being kept down by RNs. I have quite a bit of education, and am not done yet either. What I am vehemently against are these Zero to Hero Programs churning out 20 year olds who spent no time in the street as an EMT, 6 month part time paramedic programs churning out $10/hr paramedics, and a plethora of hired gun 'EMS Institutes' churning out graduates as soon as the ink dries on the tuition checks...or giving unsuitable candidates more tries at bat than a pre-school t-ball player.

I believe that RNs deserve all the credit they are due...just not at my expense. I have not met many who would have dared work where I have (Bedford-Stuyvesant and East New York during the war years 1991-~1996)...they may be out there...I have not met them yet. On the flip side of the coin, I have zero interest in what they do...never have, never will.

I hope that clears some of that up.

[Just Plain Ruff]

It is just those zero to hero medics that think they can triage at the level of the RN.

It is just those zero to hero medics who think they can teach ACLS or Pals better than the RN's or even seasoned medics.

But those zero to hero medics when put in a position that takes them OUT of the box are the ones who go screaming to their dispatch for a 2nd unit when they have two unstable patients that can go to the same trauma center.

We've all seen em. We've all been green and brand new and unsure of our skills but it seems to be that more and more of the short course medics have a limited scope of their ability to function.

I am not saying all the 6 month medics are less than stellar but we all know more than our fair share.

[ECC]

Exactly

[letmesleep]

Ok, but check this out ECC, by closing your mind on the history of nursing you can not change anything that WE need to change as you listed above. I too am all medic, and don't have the interest in nursing, but in order to better ourselves, shouldn't WE look at the Nurses and their HX to move us along? If there is no need to reinvent the wheel then why should we? This is the other problem out there...closed minds! Nursing can help us in so many ways as professionals your head would spin. Vent said that we need to get past the:

"just like them stuff", and how right that statement is, but on the "flip side of coin" we all could use a little, get over ourselves and work better as MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS!