officers

[firedoc5]

Out side of training officers, I really don't see the need to have officers in EMS.

Guess it depends on how your agency is and the size of it. If it's too large of an operation there needs to be some kind of leadership order for organization. IMHO

[JPINFV]

Every operation needs management, oversight, and leadership. That doesn't mean that providers need brass on their shoulder tips nor that every unit needs an officer on board. You standard EMS call does not require a large enough number of people to require a formal rank system. If two providers of the same level on an ambulance can't work it out between themselves who's in charge of a call, then both probably need to be removed from the field for failing to communicate.

Now that's not to say that you don't need someone in charge of the organization a a whole, people to train (although, in my experience, FTOs tend to not be the sharpest knife in the drawer), people to do QA. They're called managers, crew chiefs, FTOs, and a whole sort of other things that does not require a paramilitary mindset. The last thing I need any scene is someone who thinks that they're all that and a bag of potateo chips and doesn't have to listen to anyone else because they're a [insert random paramilitary rank] yet the same level as me.

[firedoc5]

Every operation needs management, oversight, and leadership. That doesn't mean that providers need brass on their shoulder tips nor that every unit needs an officer on board. You standard EMS call does not require a large enough number of people to require a formal rank system. If two providers of the same level on an ambulance can't work it out between themselves who's in charge of a call, then both probably need to be removed from the field for failing to communicate.

Now that's not to say that you don't need someone in charge of the organization a a whole, people to train (although, in my experience, FTOs tend to not be the sharpest knife in the drawer), people to do QA. They're called managers, crew chiefs, FTOs, and a whole sort of other things that does not require a paramilitary mindset. The last thing I need any scene is someone who thinks that they're all that and a bag of potateo chips and doesn't have to listen to anyone else because they're a [insert random paramilitary rank] yet the same level as me.

You said it better than I did. Very good.

[saboats]

I agree you need some kind of structure in any agency, this can vary depending on size, organization, or affiliation.

I don't know if paramilitary style structure is the best way or not. Lead me to the question; is EMS public health, public safety, a hybrid of both? This is why I am in this conundrum:

#1: Public Safety; means PUBLIC or municipal. Good Pay, Benefits, Retirement on par with you FD/ PD types.

#2: Public Health: Safety and Wellness. Promoting the public good, welfare checks, vaccination clinics, BP clinics, ect.

#3: Hybrid: All of the Above. Good Pay and Advancement, Retirement as well as all those things in #2...

Now, all " Public Safety" is in some sort of paramilitary system. It works, Police Officers in most places patrol alone, yet there is still a Sgt. or Lt around and a Chief in the station. (to ask about the 2 people on-scene, no need for rank comments).

We, as EMS are always looking for better pay, better training, more respect, etc. FD/PD types have got this down. EMS is fragmented with Public, Private, Hospital Based systems, low pay and an overall lack of respect in general. Maybe public safety is the way to go. Municipal agency on-par with our cohorts in Fire and Police. Same pay structure, same benefits. Just a thought..... Any opinions??

DISCLAIMER: I currently hold rank in a Municipal EMS Agency, so my opinions my be influenced. But I worked in the private and hospital based world for many years, so I see both sides....

[Just Plain Ruff]

Interesting. I think it also had to do with how much money mommy and daddy had too. I know Col. Robert Gould Shaw of the 54th Mass. Reg. was appointed as an officer (Capt.) due to money and his father being a Judge. But he turned out to be an outstanding officer, unlike so many that weren't.

And don't forget, the choice church pews went to the highest bidders or highest tither's in the congregation. I believe that John Adams and some of his family were in the first or 2nd row of the church. I can't remember exactly where I heard that Adams and his family sat but it was pretty close to the pulpit.

[letmesleep]

I just can't believe this thread has lasted this long.

[Richard B the EMT]

Why not? While some of us use the term CHAOS (Chief Has Arrived On Scene) as a humorous term, there is somewhat of a need.

In an MCI (Multiple Casualty Incident), which, per my training and standards, is any event that generates, or has potential for generating, 5 or more patients, or is one patient more than can actively be attended to by the crews from 2 ambulances (at 2 EMSers per ambulance), someone has to be the responsible party to request however more ambulances, and what levels (ALS or BLS) need respond, be the one with the information of what hospitals can take how many of specified category patients (so as not to simply transplant the MCI from the scene to any one particular hospital), or order up specialty units like HazTec, or the MIRV (Mass Incident Response Vehicle). First due supervisors usually are Lieutenants, followed by Captains, Chiefs, Division Chiefs, and Citywide level Chiefs (I am restricting my posit to FDNY EMS, and not including FDNY firefighting, or NYPD LEO resources).

If an EMT or Paramedic is running Triage or Staging sectors, and the officer feels that person is handling the job well, they most times won't pull them off the post.

Now, as for unified command posts, where we have the interaction between FDNY EMS, FDNY, NYPD, Transit Authority, Conrail, and CHEMTREC, in any combination of any of these agencies, or others I have not mentioned here, then, I believe it behooves all such agencies to have Hi ranking personnel at that unified command post, no matter which agency is considered the "Lead" agency for the incident, or type incident.

[firedoc5]

Why not? While some of us use the term CHAOS (Chief Has Arrived On Scene) as a humorous term, there is somewhat of a need.

In an MCI (Multiple Casualty Incident), which, per my training and standards, is any event that generates, or has potential for generating, 5 or more patients, or is one patient more than can actively be attended to by the crews from 2 ambulances (at 2 EMSers per ambulance), someone has to be the responsible party to request however more ambulances, and what levels (ALS or BLS) need respond, be the one with the information of what hospitals can take how many of specified category patients (so as not to simply transplant the MCI from the scene to any one particular hospital), or order up specialty units like HazTec, or the MIRV (Mass Incident Response Vehicle). First due supervisors usually are Lieutenants, followed by Captains, Chiefs, Division Chiefs, and Citywide level Chiefs (I am restricting my posit to FDNY EMS, and not including FDNY firefighting, or NYPD LEO resources).

If an EMT or Paramedic is running Triage or Staging sectors, and the officer feels that person is handling the job well, they most times won't pull them off the post.

Now, as for unified command posts, where we have the interaction between FDNY EMS, FDNY, NYPD, Transit Authority, Conrail, and CHEMTREC, in any combination of any of these agencies, or others I have not mentioned here, then, I believe it behooves all such agencies to have Hi ranking personnel at that unified command post, no matter which agency is considered the "Lead" agency for the incident, or type incident.

CHAOS is exactly how it was on the Dept. I was on. He was one of those guys that things would be going smooth, things were getting done, no complications...he would arrive and start barking orders. It was like he was trying to keep you from doing your job. And not only on scenes. Whether it was station duties, inspections, hydrant testing, hose maintainance, etc., he'd have to throw a wrench into the monkey works somehow. I think he got off on it. Most of us knew he was a power tripper and knew that every now and then he'd have to flex things up.

[Richard B the EMT]

I wish I could say that there are no supervisors on power trips, but I hate lying.

There are some good ones , too.

[firedoc5]

I wish I could say that there are no supervisors on power trips, but I hate lying.

There are some good ones , too.

My late Capt. was outstanding. But he never really wanted to be Chief. An some people couldn't see him as a Chief. They said he was too nice. He was nice, but he made sure you did things right and in a timely manor. But you sure didn't want to p!ss him off.