When is a "medic" not a Paramedic, outside the mil

[DwayneEMTP]

Why does it matter?

It's inaccurate, and I don't really need more than that to disagree with it.

It perpetuates the misconceptions the public has regarding the level of care they are receiving. Why do people believe that a fire truck full of basics is better than an ambulance with a medic? Because a lot of time and money has been spent to mislead them into believing so.

In the case mentioned initially I believe that it is an attempt to purposefully mislead the public again, and that is way more than I need to disagree with it.

Asked if it bothers me that all levels are called medics in Canada...I can't really say. If the public understands the difference in level of care, then no. If the public believes that a medic is a medic is a medic, then yes, I disagree with it.

Contrary to popular opinion, the public will often make intelligent decisions when given the information needed to do so. So long as we continue to allow inaccurate, misleading, and at times blatantly, purposefully, deceptive information to permeate the public perception of EMS then positive change, (defined in my world, in this context, as giving the public information they need to intelligently decided on the level of care they wish to pay for in their communities), will be very difficult at best, impossible at worst.

Dwayne

[DwayneEMTP]

The biggest obstacle in teaching the public is that there are so many certs. on different levels. So many in fact that it's hard for us to keep them all straight. :roll: :oops:

I disagree completely. There are only two that matter in the vast majority of the U.S. Basic and paramedic. Intermediates are not utilized in most places to the best of my knowledge. A lot of effort has been expended to confuse these, but it's really very simple.

A medic truck says "Paramedic" on the side of it...don't you suppose there is a perfectly good reason that there is not "Basic unit" printed on most fire trucks nor all basic/basic ambulances? Yeah...The public wouldn't like it, and not liking it they would make different decisions....And most don't want them making intelligent decisions that will affect their budgets.

I'll bet you $100 that you can't find 5% of the public that has ever even heard of the other certs, much less confuse them with anything. Weak point this time Doc.

Dwayne

[Just Plain Ruff]

I sort of disagree with dwayne, I bet if you ask 75% percent of the public if that guy whos over there wearing a EMS uniform is an emt or a paramedic and I'll bet you will get the answer Paramedic.

It's not the certification that we have to worry about people misconstruing(sic) it's the overall perception that we are all paramedics or just ambulance drivers.

I would say that outside of our circles - ems, police, fire and hospital that the majority of the public consider us paramedics if asked.

I think that if you ask the next 10 people you meet on the street while in uniform if you are a paramedic or a emt they will overwhelmingly say paramedic.

It's not educating them as to us being paramedics, rescue 911 did that, it's educating the public that there are different levels.

[chbare]

Hmm, well a couple of points if I may?

First, I would not say the I/99 is the old paramedic curriculum. Perhaps this is true in specific sates; however, the I/99 was developed by the DOT. The model is similar to a paramedic model; however, I see a significant difference between the I/99 and the older PM courses. Back in the late 1990's when I was looking into paramedic schools, many of the core programs were in the 700-1000 hour range. Note: this was prior to 1999. However, the current I/99 curriculum can be taught in as little as 300 hours total. Look up the DOT NSC, you will find a direct quote stating average students will have average results with 300-400 hours of instruction. This is significantly less than even the older PM courses that I know of. Not that 700 hours is anything to brag about. However, I can agree on one point. The I/99 with 300 hours of training can perform similar skills to many paramedic providers.

I have to disagree with the intermediate not being utilized comment. Intermediate level providers are quite popular. Why spend time and resources on paramedics when intermediates can have a similar skill set with significantly less education and pay?

Take care,

chbare.

[saboats]

Not that I really want to disagree.... But..... The I/99 curriculum IS word for word the old paramedic curriculum. The fact that many institutions had 700 hours (many back then including clinical hours) for a course that was listed at 400-500 and using that as the basis for saying that they weren't the same is non sequitur .

When the 1998 (Current) Paramedic Curriculum was published and placed into practice, the DOT standard EMT-I was the EMT-I (85). After the change to the medic program, a decision was made to use the old paramedic curriculum, and in 1999 was released as the revised Intermediate Curriculum. After many states bucked this change the old I(85) was kept and states used whichever program they choice. However - due to this change in 1999, many states wrote there own Intermediate Curriculums and don't follow either the I85 or the I99.

If you still have the DOT National Standards from back then lying around somewhere, and the current I99 standard, take a look. They are practically identical.

[chbare]

Ok, still not the same IMHO. Take the old PM, chop 100-200 hours off of it, and call it the new intermediate. The argument is really not as important as is the fact that people with 300 hours of training can provide paramedic level care. In fact, the 300-400 is only a recommendation, so in theory, you could see how low you can go.

Take care,

chbare.

[saboats]

Ok, still not the same IMHO. Take the old PM, chop 100-200 hours off of it, and call it the new intermediate. The argument is really not as important as is the fact that people with 300 hours of training can provide paramedic level care. In fact, the 300-400 is only a recommendation, so in theory, you could see how low you can go.

Take care,

chbare.

I see what you were getting at, and I agree it's not the same in a scenario as you state it. And it's soon to be a dead issue anyway with the Final Draft 1.0 of the National Standards being out today. In NH EMT-I(85) is a minimum 80 hour program, - (that's how low you can go!) A lot depends on your states rules and laws regarding initial training programs. Many follow the standards, e.g. if the NHTSA DOT Standards state a minimum of 120hours to complete, then the state requires 120 minimum.

I don't think I want to open up the issue that an person in <200hours of training can become an EMT-I here, start IV's, initiate advanced airways, give medications ect ect, but the Wal-Mart training for new hires is 3 weeks to work a register (120 hours); but I digress....

[chbare]

Hehehe, yeah, I think we are on the same page.

Take care,

chbare.

[Arizonaffcep]

Getting back to the original posting... In Arizona ALL EMT/EMT-I/EMT-P (this includes federal agents) MUST be under medical control to practice at their AZ equivalent. Now, this is when the person is OFF Federal Land. For instance, BorStar is based (in the Tucson area) with Saint Mary's or Kino Hospital, or Tucson Medical Center (I don't remember which). The Army Air National Guard Medics weren't allowed to do anything until the last year or so when they got based with an area hospital, and can now practice at the air port (Pinal Air Park) where they train (Pinal Air Park is owned by Evergreen, a private company, the AANG have a small "base" on the far west side, but mutual aid with Pinal Air Park FD). So...if the NPS wanted to put their "medics" or whatevers in service in Arizona and be able to operate in anyplace other than Federal Lands, they must have a base hospital.

[WestSideBorderPatrol]

In Maryland when we call out over the radio it goes one of these ways:

EMT-B: "Ambulance *** en-route"

IV Tech: "IV *** en-route"

EMT-I: "Medic *** en-route"

EMT-P: "Paramedic *** en-route"