Bail Enforcment Agents, The Combative PT and Confidentiality

[trailrunner78]

Perhaps I missed this point in trying to follow the string. Has anyone mentioned allowing the self professed (state of the occurrance, not of the state, no regulatory needed in the state) "Bail Enforcer/Bounty Hunter" to accompany their "prisoner" as long as the local LEO also accompanies you in your ambulance?

I am aware, sometime over a year ago, we had a discussion on firearms in the ambulance (not carried by the crew or patient), and anyone wishing to return to that discussion should research the thread, and reopen it, if they feel they have something further to contribute ON THAT THREAD. (Trying to keep on track)

Oh no, you're not getting me into this one again......

Thanks for your patience.

[Asysin2leads]

As a follow up to my own thread, I recognize that the federal government does establish provisions for bail bondsmen and their agents to pursue and detain fugitives, but that still does not give them any special authority towards medical care unless it is somehow stipulated in the bail agreement.

[Just Plain Ruff]

I finally agree with trailrunner78, please delete this as, useless. I do wonder how gratifying it must be for one to pick away at the short comings of another on the Internet. Yes, spelling and even my grammar are weak for sure, but I do find it interesting that none of the questions posed to you have been answered with any thing more than your opinion, or not answered at all. Instead you feel the need to take the cheap shots at my spelling. You have brought no real FACT to this conversation other than that which I have provided with my writing skills. During this exchange you suggested that I do some research, and when I retrieved information that clearly backed up my statement, I got accusations of paraphrasing from you, but still no answers. It seems as though all you are really interested in doing here is arguing instead of have any type of conversation about the topic. Did you post your opinion in regards to the thread? Yes, but you haven't followed though with any hard core evidence to back you up other than a little "cut and paste" to attack me. You did make me laugh with your little comment about south and west side Chicago, what a badass you must be to "make it" where I'm sure no "faint hearted white boy" can. Maybe I did misread that statement, yeah, no racism there at all.

As I said before, any regular Joe off the street can get a badge from Galls, and clam to be a, how did you phrase that? oh yes, "armed Private Detective Agency employee, or bounty hunter, or skipchaser, or whatever. The only exception is in the 3 states that are listed in the web description I posted which has gone unopposed. There is, as far as my ignorant and uneducated ass is concerned, NO licensure, NO regulations, NO required training that I have found, and apparently trailrunner has no time to expand on his opinion.

I am done as well with this topic, this white boy is out!

I suggest if you both want to take shots at each other you go to pm's. Not many here want to continue to listen to the two of you prove who has the bigger e-peen.

sorry for bluntness but the only thing you both are doing is getting mad at each other and giving us lurkers some entertainment.

[Asysin2leads]

The State where I worked as an armed Private Detective Agency employee (Illinois) has no bail bond system, but we did get the occasional request from an out of state agency to check out the address of known relatives of a skip to see if he was hanging out there......we rolled with an AR15 and a 12ga. autoloader in the trunk in addition to our sidearms. If it's on your "Tan Card", you can have it.....The South and West Sides of Chicago are no place for an under-equipped or faint hearted white boy.

You know, I'm kind of lost here. I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on the ghetto. I've worked my little slice of East Harlem for several months now, and have done tours (as in tour I, tour II, tour III, not tour of duty in Southeast Asia tour) in the South Bronx and Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, but, in dealing with the residents, I've always gotten the impression that easiest way to get offed is to be an aggressive redneck armed to the teeth and demanding to know where people's family members are. There is something I am really missing here. Don't be frontin', yo.

[Richard B the EMT]

As a follow up to my own thread, I recognize that the federal government does establish provisions for bail bondsmen and their agents to pursue and detain fugitives, but that still does not give them any special authority towards medical care unless it is somehow stipulated in the bail agreement.

I am going to hope that I am misunderstanding you, or perhaps I simply don't understand, period.

The movie standard phrase was, "Dead Or Alive". There, strictly called "Bounty Hunters" got paid for the delivery of the runaway, no matter if the person was delivered intact to serve jail time, or go directly to "Boot Hill".

Somehow, I don't think the Bail Enforcer/Bounty Hunter, at least nowadays, gets paid if they deliver a dead body, nor would they want their recovered fugitive to die in their custody. I am unsure of the law, but doesn't it seem that, if only technically, the Bail Enforcer/Bounty Hunter would not want to be charged for either causing, or allowing, the fugitive's death through not getting said fugitive needed medical care?

I speak emotionally, and probably not factually, that the District Attorney could charge such Bail Enforcer/Bounty Hunter with human indifference and/or manslaughter, if the fugitive died on their watch.

[Asysin2leads]

Rich, I'm pretty sure that if a bail enforcement officer engaged in activities that delayed or hindered rendering medical care, he could be held liable. However, I just wonder if somewhere on the fine print of a bail bond agreement it gives the bail bonds agency or its agencies some sort of power of attorney over the bailee. Yes, surprise, surprise, I've never been arrested so I don't know the bail process.

[Christopher.Collins]

...always gotten the impression that easiest way to get offed is to be an aggressive redneck armed to the teeth and demanding to know where people's family members are. There is something I am really missing here. Don't be frontin', yo.

Do you think a white boy trying to "fit in to the surroundings" (to politely put it) would be much better?

[NREMT-Basic]

So I was wondering, as I continue to see more and more bail enforcement companies and agents in my area. Just how does HIPAA apply with them?

If I get called by PD for a combative suspect I can choose to have them come on board the ambulance or follow me in their vehicle. But Bail Enforcement Agents are not sworn officers of the law and do not "arrest" a suspect, therfore if I am ever called to treat a suspect they are taking into custody... do I contact PD if needed or can they legally be in the ambulance?

Actually, they do affect a lawful arrest (assuming they follow the rules) since they are apprehending people on surety warrants which either automatically issue when the person fails to appear in court or are issued by a judge in the form of a bail revocation/bench warrant. And no. They are not bound by HIPAA since they are not health care professionals.

[NREMT-Basic]

No offense taken here, but in all reality they have the same arrest powers that you and I do. Last time I checked the citizen has the right to arrest, and thats what these men and women really are as stated by Asysin2leads above. When it comes to keeping everyone safe on our scene we use the PD not a bounty hunter, so in this situation the PD will be dispatched to protect us from the "skip" as well as the bondsman. It is a territorial issue at this point. It's my responsiblity to run that ambulance, and maintain order in that ambulance while I am on duty. Thats what the taxpayers pay ME for, and if I allow somebody (PD included) to take control of my truck, then I haven't done my job. Trailrunner, your right, we are responsible for the medical "stuff", and that includes the safety of the "skip" if they are requesting medical assistance. If the bondsmen don't want to follow the "rule of the truck", then sign here and take the "skip" to the ED yourself, or talk to MY officer about it.

Except for the fact that bail agents have (in most states where they are legally allowed to operate)the right to "break and enter" a residence in which they have a reasonable belief that their skip is residing. In laymen's terms, they can kick down a door and turn the place upside down to find their skip. You or I do that and we will find ourselves on the receiving end of multiple felony counts including home invasion. Also, bail agents are not bound by the same laws as law enforcement officers so comparing the two is apples and oranges. In many states, LEOs must take a defendant to ED if they have been sprayed with a chemical agent or tazed. Most bail agents are not required to do this.

[NREMT-Basic]

While I agree that if there are problems; then by all means, bring law enforcement into play. Having a shouting match with anyone over who is the actual boss is counterproductive at best.

The 'problem' I'm having with this post is the section hilighted in red....how can the bondsman even BEGIN to decide whats best for the patient, or even refuse medical treatment on the patients behalf? If theres ANY signature on a refusal to treat form, it had BETTER be that of the patient!

To allow the bondsman (or law enforcement officer) to speak for, and ultimately refuse medical treatment for the prisoner would constitute abandonment.

Even in the event that the patient is a minor, the ONLY people that can sign a refusal would be the minors LEGAL GUARDIANS, appointed by the family court. Last time I checked, not even law enforcement has that power; even with 'one in custody'!

Here in IL, if a person is refusing care but will not sign the refusal, the signatures of the medical responder and a LEO are considered sufficient along with an explanation of same in the run report.