Furthering the dialogue: EMTs and Paramedics

[Eydawn]

Alright, since the other one got locked, how about we really continue the dialogue? Not just what ticks you off about the other level, but where you think the real source of the general problem is. Not just "I hate the ______ at *MY* department because of X" rants... but "I think this is where/why this problem is caused."

I want to hear from both levels, and if you offer a problem, you must offer its cause *AND* a tentative solution from how you see it. I also would like to have honest responses from Basics... if you were given the scholarship and social support, would you go for Paramedic, or are you holding back for another reason?

In the spirit of an actual discourse, any responses that are simply put as "Basics suck" or "Paragods are tools" or suchlike have invite from ADMIN to immediately delete them.

I put out a lengthy post on this topic in the now locked thread. If anyone wants to resurrect it or link it, feel free. I want to know what everyone else thinks. I know we can think critically about this problem without infusing our whole emotional local crapfests into the thread and causing lockdown tighter than organic cashew butter.

Alright... ready? Go.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[ERDoc]

Good luck Eyedawn. I will be surprised if it makes it past the first page.

[sirduke]

I for one would have loved to have a scholarship to go to paramedic school, my service will reimburse you over a three year period AFTER you graduate and pass Registry.

Georgia offers the Hope grant, which I got, but it barely covers tuition, you are on your own for books. One of my classmates works for a more progressive service which covers everything, with an additional bonus of paying mileage to and from school.

The rest has come out of my pocket, but if anyone uses the excuse about not being able to afford it, it is just that, an excuse.

My income level disqualified me for Pell Grants, but those who say, "I don't make enough, or my family doesn't have the money" are the ones who DO qualify for these grants.

Then again, try a student loan.

Bottom line, if you want to go further with your education, you will do it, if you don't, you'll find an excuse.

Another peeve of mine is the EMTs I know, who have been in EMS 5 or more years, who passed up opportunities to go to school, yet get pissy with me for going.

If you want to stagnate, thats your choice, but don't bitch when I am trying to progress.

[Eydawn]

All right. You've named the peeve. NAME THE CAUSE. Why do they resent you pursuing a higher level of education?

NAME A SOLUTION. How can you convince them that education is the way to go? Why is education important, and how could that be communicated to these people?

Thanks.

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[sirduke]

I'll give you my opinion, and remember, its my opinion only.

Causes

A.) They are afraid that they might try and fail, maybe, I doubt this is the main cause.

B.) They are lazy, having risen to their own level of incompetence or complacency.

C.) Both

Cure

A.) Require them to get busy or get out. I would imagine the latter option taken.

To me it is like trying to help an alcholic, if they want help, they'll seek it out, otherwise you are wasting your breath.

Just one man's opinion

[Eydawn]

Why are they complacent with where they are?

How do you propose they "get busy or get out"? Are we talking legislation, company policy, etc. requiring a 4 year degree before you can work on an ambulance?

Wendy

CO EMT-B

[letmesleep]

I want to hear from both levels, and if you offer a problem, you must offer its cause *AND* a tentative solution from how you see it. I also would like to have honest responses from Basics... if you were given the scholarship and social support, would you go for Paramedic, or are you holding back for another reason?

In the spirit of an actual discourse, any responses that are simply put as "Basics suck" or "Paragods are tools" or suchlike have invite from ADMIN to immediately delete them.

I have to agree with Wendy, Admin, I did state in the OP that has since been locked, that I would not challenge you on your decision, and I WILL NOT begin now, apologies if you feel I might be now.

Wendy isn't asking for anything more than a honest, professional, curtious, adult conversation here, and I DO challenge all of us to meet the guidelines to find the root cause of this issue. I also would like to apologize for my absence yesterday in the "locked" thread, the fiancee was injured on the job, and needed to be cared for here at home. She is fine, and currently in a chemically induced coma on the couch recovering, and all other players are unharmed.

What I saw in the other thread initially was numerous concerns about the money issues. Speaking for myself, when I put myself through medic school I had to maintain a full-time job and a family as well. I worked for a private company at the time, and educational benefits were non-existent. Putting an EMT through school was in their mind, not a good investment because it would eventually increase their overhead as more would go back to school, then down the road we would all expect to be paid as medics....DUH! This is what the point is, isn't it? How do we solve this issue? At this point, we have to find the means, as adults, to accomplish our goals of higher education, grants, student loans, educational benefits, the money is out there, and with research it can be found. OK, OK, I know your looking at your screen and saying" letmesleep, your nuts!", but think about it, isn't "climbing the wall " what we do as professionals? If you have a pt who needs to have an airway, but is wrapped up in that mess that used to a car, do we throw our hands in the air and say "I quit, until he is laid out supine, I can't help him"? NO, we figure it out. I am not going to tell people how to live their home lives, but we do what we have too, to survive.

In a perfect world I would love to see a complete restructuring of the medical field in regards to "rank" (for lack of a better term). The unfortunate side of this is that we have (in medicine) way to many areas of expertise that need to be addressed. With that said, we need as EMS providers to push EMTs and EMT-Is to complete their education to at least the medic level, if not past that. We need to stop the lower levels from making that cert/ license a career choice. How do we do this? Do we put a time limit on it? Do we completely do away with these levels and make their classes an ongoing program towards the medic education?

Wendy, you had some (what I felt) awesome insight in the other thread, as to how to maybe educate the "lower levels" (again for a lack of a better term). Dust you put out another thread talking about the "monkey" experiment. We all stop for a second and read, ask for clarification, and try to understand what is being said, on both ends. As medics, it is our job to educate (*slaps us medics), but to the rest of the providers here, it is not our place to hold your hand (*slaps the EMTs and EMT-Is). I was told in my EMT class, many years ago......"this is adult education, I (my instructor) will provide you with the information, it is up to you to learn it". Being comfortable having your hands tied as a medical provider and Pt advocate has to be the last thing any of us would ever want, so why do we do it?

[Lone Star]

I'll give you my opinion, and remember, its my opinion only.

Causes

A.) They are afraid that they might try and fail, maybe, I doubt this is the main cause.

B.) They are lazy, having risen to their own level of incompetence or complacency.

C.) Both

Cure

A.) Require them to get busy or get out. I would imagine the latter option taken.

To me it is like trying to help an alcholic, if they want help, they'll seek it out, otherwise you are wasting your breath.

Just one man's opinion

Heres where I would have to disagree.

First off, not everyone is going to qualify for financial aid, but are still living 'hand to mouth' (especially seen in students with families), one income households, or those trying to get out from under a ton of debt.

By incurring MORE debt shows financial irresponsibility. The housing market disaster should validate this point!

You're quick to group people into two main categories:

Lazy and those who are satisfied with the bare minimums of education.

I'm NOT offering 'excuses' here, nor am I trying to discourage anyone from advancing their education! I want to be VERY clear on this! Rather than automatically lump people into these two categories, maybe people should start with trying to understand the facts behind the EMT not jumping into medic school.

I know I have MY reasons, but I'm trying to work through them and get things worked out so that I can go back to school.

I'm not afraid of failure, because I'm clever enough to know that I'm only going to get out of the educational opportunity what I put INTO it!

[Asysin2leads]

Its financially irresponsible to buy a $50,000 car when you make $10.50 an hour. Its is not financially irresponsible to get $25,000 in loans to double your salary. There's a difference.

The problem is that people want the money and glory without doing the work, and they get pissy when they are not handed what they want when they want it.

There is also a myth prevalent in this country, and its reinforced by TV and movies, and its the myth that the important things in life are really simple, and that it takes a down to earth, simple solution to cut through all the pointy headed BS. Its a myth fostered by people who can't understand complex solutions yet refuse to accept their impotence. Its why in movies the day is saved by the blue collar working guy, or the child, or the innocent farm boy. In real life, that doesn't happen, but people like to believe it does. They like to believe in a crisis, be it a fire, or a medical emergency, there will be a bunch of educated people throwing there hands in the air and not having all that book stuff working for them until a good ole boy can stroll in, hitch up his belt, and tell everyone how its done. Its why I get stories like sirduke's and why people bought GWB's solution to the war on terrorism. Its it a myth, but people believe it. They honestly believe that knowing less is the solution. They stubbornly cling to the idea that "there are things ya can't learn in the classroom", and its because THEY can't learn things in a classroom. But accepting your limits is a hard thing to do, and so we nestle in to comfortable stories about how the guy with the least education saves the day because of his special breed of gumption.

Which is why people refuse to be educated, and why I hear so many cockamamie stories about the paramedics who couldn't get the IV till the EMT with the belt buckle came along and showed them that there BLS skills came first, and it is all bullshit.

Compounding this problem is what I call "The Oprah Effect", whereby people assume they're opinion is just as important as everyone else's because they've watched too much Oprah Winfrey and American Idol. Its why don't grasp the concept that other people who know more than they do are more qualified to make a decision than they are. They refuse to accept that they don't have a say.

Which leads people like me to be in a very frustrating position, where I am held to highest standards of responsibility and duty on a call, because I am working against years of indoctrination by TV, movies, and society, I simply cannot get people who are supposed to be subordinate to me to follow orders and get the job done. If people wanted to be EMT's, I'd be really happy, but they don't, the never do, they all want to be a fucking hero instead and step in and save the day. Which is why nursing school is looking really appealing right now.

[scott33]

Herin lies the problem.

We have a healthcare system that allows the individual to contribute just what they chose to, in order to practice. Be it 120 hours, a 4-year degree, or anything in between.

It's wrong though to place the blame solely on the individual EMT, as that's just the way EMS is. You want to go out and save lives on an ambulance? No problem, sign here and we will train you! It has to be mentioned however, that some people like to go through life doing the bare minimum of anything, so it is only logical that EMS is the ideal stomping ground for a few of those who want all the glory, but without all that "book lurrnin" stuff

Conversely, the point that not everyone has time to do a medic course, or can afford the tuition is a fair and valid one, and I would never suggest otherwise. What I would say, is that those same people should not be facilitated to join EMS in the first place, the same as they would not be permitted to practice nursing or medicine on an ad-hoc basis. In other words; education first, practice second. This is the model that every other healthcare profession takes, so why should EMS be so different?

I agree with those who state that the whole system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. EMS stands alone as the only healthcare "profession" (loose use of the word) to have such fragmented, watered-down requirements to practice at this point in time.