Suicide among EMS/Fire personnel

[john51071]

I apologize for the grim subject matter, but there is a reason for my asking. If anyone in here has had a co-worker (Fire and/or EMS) who committed suicide, either on- or off-duty, and don't mind talking about it, please contact me. I have researched the subject, and am in the midst of developing a book/course on preventing suicide among FF/EMS workers. There are mountains of information out there on police officers, and rightfully so, but we have been painfully overlooked and the problem is larger than I anticipated. I am seeking a little extra information, as my research is basically complete. I won't ask for personal information or identifiers. My partner successfully committed suicide while on duty, and that is what has given me the drive me to do this. Any responses would be appreciated. Respond to me on this forum, private message, or public, and I will give you my contact information. Thanks in advance. John

[letmesleep]

john51071, what is your thought on the issue?

I may come off pretty heartless, and sound uncaring about this, but suicide in my opinion is very selfish. The fact that WE as medical providers feel that this is a way to solve our own problems makes this beyond selfish. It seems as though there have been many threads on the topic of suicide lately, and tons of opinions about how it is their (those who attempt and/or successful) choice. Suicide is the taking of one's own life, so the argument that it is their choice is really moot, otherwise it would be called something like, umm...I don't know, maybe HOMICIDE?

Suicide is a "way out" for those who take and make that decision, the easy way out for themselves. There is no consideration for the family and friends left behind to deal with the aftermath. I will give those who consider it, an ear to bend, and talk to them while on the way to get them help, because in my mind there is no rational thought behind suicide, and they need help, but how is it that we are sympathetic for those who succeed? Save the pity for the family that has to deal with the lack of closer they are now faced with.

John, I have known two co-workers in the past 15 years who have committed this act, two whom I felt would have come to the aid of a friend before ending their lives, two who felt there was never any excuse for suicide.

I realize that there is such a state of mind that these people have gotten to, to commit such a long term answer to a short term problem. The psyche behind this state of mind may be beyond my understanding, but to preform such an act with no consideration of anyone else is unforgivable to me. I read in another thread somebody wrote that we should just keep our opinions to ourselves if we have never faced it first hand. That to me is just another selfish thought of someone who may have thought about suicide themselves, and proves to me that there is NO consideration for anybody, but YOU.

[Dustdevil]

I realize that there is such a state of mind that these people have gotten to, to commit such a long term answer to a short term problem. The psyche behind this state of mind may be beyond my understanding...

Obviously.

Not all problems that result in suicide are "short term". I guess you've never been there. Good for you.

[letmesleep]

Actually Dust, I have been there once, and my opinion on the subject is from a first hand account, however, when I realized that it was going effect everybody in my life negatively and that I would be the only one relieved of any suffering, I was strong enough to find an alternate solution to the problem. I know not all are able to do this themselves and thats when help should be sought, but those that are able to follow through with ending their lives are selfish, and have only thought of themselves.

[paramedicmike]

I know not all are able to do this themselves and thats when help should be sought, but those that are able to follow through with ending their lives are selfish, and have only thought of themselves.

That's a pretty narrow minded approach. It's also easy to sit back, take this attitude and claim the moral high ground when you have a limited understanding of what's going on in other people's heads.

Glad it worked out for you, though. Your lack of selfishness must leave you very proud.

-be safe

[letmesleep]

I may come off pretty heartless, and sound uncaring about this, but suicide in my opinion is very selfish. The fact that WE as medical providers feel that this is a way to solve our own problems makes this beyond selfish.

As I stated Mike, your thoughts about me and this issue are of no concern to me. I responded to the thread, you responded to the statements I have made. Never did I state that I am morally above anyone. I stated that I may come off as a little harsh, and that I feel as if it is a selfish way to handle pressure. If you feel the need to make me out to be the "holly than thou" asshole that your hinting around at, thats on you, and matters nothing to me. I stated in my original post that all of this is based on MY OPINION, and followed it up with acknowledgment of being in this state of mind at one time, in which, I developed this OPINION. I also admitted that the state of mind maybe beyond my understanding.

With that said:

Teach me something new about the topic Mike. Instead, as you have done once before you choose to attack me with your majestic wisdom instead of adding to the thread.

[Dustdevil]

Teach me something new about the topic Mike.

Why bother? You already admitted that it was beyond your understanding.

So I suppose that, had you beat cancer, you'd also think that anyone who did not beat cancer was weak and selfish?

[paramedicmike]

...because in my mind there is no rational thought behind suicide...

Did you know that more than 90% of people who attempt suicide and succeed suffer from depression, mental illness, substance abuse or a combination of the three? How do you expect any kind of rational thought to come from someone suffering one or more of those afflictions?

The answer is, you can't. By attempting to be rational with the irrational you wind up with misconceptions that lead to your ignorant, and uninformed, "opinion".

The psyche behind this state of mind may be beyond my understanding...

Exactly. You have admitted it yourself. You have no understanding of the state of mind of someone who would be driven to this point. Which is why it's especially disappointing to see you being so quick to judge. Even more so when you state point blank that you have no idea what you're talking about.

This discussion would be an excellent example of why in depth psychology classes are important as part of basic EMS education.

Too bad the lesson will be wasted.

-be safe anyway

[letmesleep]

How is that even comparable? Cancer is cancer, you may choose things in your life that lead to cancer, but how is it that anyone can choose to have cancer, or any other disease out there, for that matter? What a ridiculous statement.

QUOTE: Suicide is a major, preventable public health problem. In 2004, it was the eleventh leading cause of death in the U.S., accounting for 32,439 deaths.1 The overall rate was 10.9 suicide deaths per 100,000 people.1 An estimated eight to 25 attempted suicides occur per every suicide death.

That was an interesting article Mike, and I will agree with the fact that there is NO way to rationalize with an unrational person, which is why I stated in the rest of that statement that: I will give those who consider it, an ear to bend, and talk to them while on the way to get them help, because in my mind there is no rational thought behind suicide, and they need help

Suicide is self-induced, period. It is a choice that one person makes to end mental suffering. The issue I have with this is simple, it is selfish due to the fact that the suffering may end for one, but only begins for others in their life. How is that statement wrong Dust, Mike? Please tell me how it is that suicide is an unselfish act, is there any instance out there that suicide is the answer, and please don't bother with assisted death due to illness. The topic is suicide.

[paramedicmike]

Dust's analogy fits. Too bad you can't see that, either.

Trying to cloud the issue by referencing the statement that it is preventable is counterproductive. Car accidents are preventable but you're not arguing those are selfish. Many cancers are preventable but you're not arguing those as selfish. Stick with the point.

Suicide is not an act of selfishness simply because you have to be rational to think in such terms. You admit that it is an irrational act. No one in their right mind would kill him/her-self, right? So why are you so insistent that the actions and thought processes of a "rational" person be applied to a person that you readily and freely admit is irrational?

Since those who kill themselves are, at least on some level, irrational, you cannot attach terms or actions of rationality to them. They are two completely different and distinct points. The individual in question is not in his/her right mind and is not subject to many of the "rational actions" you seem hung up on.

No one is arguing the point that it can be devastating for the surviving family members, friends, co-workers et cetera. However, that cannot be considered in this particular instance as it has nothing to do with the act itself. It is simply a knee jerk emotional reaction by someone who is angry and refuses to learn and understand what would lead someone to that end. It's a reaction by someone who is, in a sense, acting selfishly.

You admit that it is not a rational decision to make. Yet you cannot grasp the concept that a rational label does not fit in an irrational situation. Open your mind. Read. Learn. Experience. Work with the mentally ill. I'm not talking running psych calls. I'm talking full on, in depth hands on with mentally ill people. You will find and learn many, many things. The least of which will be that you have no idea what you're talking about.

But you've already admitted that. So why are you arguing this point?

-be safe