p3medic Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 Seattle Medic One you say! You are talking about ALS engine companies and 100% firefighter medics, you would be laughed right out of Seattle! Other than Boston, Seattle has the fewest paramedics per capita of any major U.S. city and doesn't have a single Paramedic engine company. You are comparing apples to oranges my friend, you are nothing like Seattle, more like DC, LA, and San Diego perhaps.
oneilljb Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 Seattle Medic One you say! You are talking about ALS engine companies and 100% firefighter medics, you would be laughed right out of Seattle! Other than Boston, Seattle has the fewest paramedics per capita of any major U.S. city and doesn't have a single Paramedic engine company. You are comparing apples to oranges my friend, you are nothing like Seattle, more like DC, LA, and San Diego perhaps. I did not intend to compare my department with the Seattle Fire Department nor with Medic One. My intent was to use them as an example of a fire-based system of service provision and paramedic education that has been a success. I am clear that few, if any, can claim to be on par or superior to Medic One. My apologies to Dr. Cobb and his followers if I offended with unmeant presumption.
spenac Posted October 18, 2008 Posted October 18, 2008 I debated wading into this fray. I resisted because on my last visiting of this site, nearly a year ago, I decided the unnecessary vitriol cast upon fire service based EMS providers would never allow me to participate in intelligent discourse here and that my position as a firefighter would cause me to be looked upon as a “half-breed,” as unclean and unworthy of holding a countering opinion to any I read previously. In this case, after a friend told me about the chatter found here… Well, as my saintly great grandmother often said about me when I was a pup, "Sometimes the boy just cain’t hep hisself." Feel free to cast aspersions my way. I am a big boy and I think I can take it. If I do not respond, however, please do not take offense. Simply look inside yourself and ask “Who do I really hate?” Thank you for a well thought out response. While I still disagree with fire being in control of EMS I am glad to hear that in many ways this in your opinion is a much improved system. I do hope for the citizens you serve that it works better than those I am familiar with. Please come back and post on any topic you want to. Anyone that provides intelligent discussion is always welcome. But at times we all get jumped on when others disagree with us. I would say welcome to the site but doesn't look like you are really new here.
Dustdevil Posted October 19, 2008 Posted October 19, 2008 I did not intend to compare my department with the Seattle Fire Department nor with Medic One. My intent was to use them as an example of a fire-based system of service provision and paramedic education that has been a success. I am clear that few, if any, can claim to be on par or superior to Medic One. LOL! That should be Dr. Bledsoe's next EMS Myth to explode. Actually, I believe he has written about it, but Seattle FD EMS is smoke and mirrors. The only thing they have to point to to claim "success" is supposedly an above average CPR save rate. Problem is, that was disproven years ago, when it was revealed that they cook the numbers in order to reach figures they want to claim. Their save rate is no better than most other systems. They just don't count 90 percent of their non-saves. Once you toss out the bogus "save" rate, there is nothing about Seattle/King County that is even mildly impressive. As for the vitriol found here, I believe you are overstating it. You didn't think you could find intelligent professional discussion here because of it? Did you try? Did you try to have an intelligent medical discussion? Leave your bunker gear at the door and just be a medical professional like the rest of us, and you will find more intelligent medical discussion here than most anyplace else. But if you strut around with a chip on your red helmet, you reap what you sow. There are many fire and volunteer providers here at the City who have been here a long time, and they find plenty of intelligent professional discussion. Are they that much better than you? Or is your idea of intelligent discussion different than ours? Maybe you are too needy to get satisfaction from intelligent professional discussion that doesn't involve the back-slapping fire "brotherhood" nonsense? I dunno. I think you just weren't trying, which is a shame, because obviously you're a smart and well spoken guy that could be an asset here if you would drop the attitude.
VentMedic Posted October 19, 2008 Author Posted October 19, 2008 Following a one-year, state-mandated probationary period, the department plans to expand from 36 to 72 candidates per session and hopes to train 120 paramedics over the next three years. It is interesting that they used 3 years for their goal of 120 paramedics. That is when the NREMT deadline starts for accreditation.
Kiwiology Posted October 19, 2008 Posted October 19, 2008 Here in good ole New Zealand we have fire/rescue (supression/extrication/heavy rescue) and we have EMS. The two are totally seperate except for a few rural communities where Fire provides a first responder capability to assist EMS because they better able to respond faster and the capital (Wellington) which is a plan to get the cardiac arrest survival rate up by utilising AED equipped engine companies. I do not have a problem with fire based EMS; what I (and I think everybody here) has a problem with are the departments who require paramedic certification in order to become a firefighter. You cannot tell me that you can create the same calibre of paramedic out of a firefighter who is only a Paramedic because he has to be one to pass his probation or keep his job nor can you tell me that you will create the same calibre of firefighter out of a paramedic who only got his FF ticket because he had to in order to be employed. The danger in doing that (as I know a lot of US departments do) is that you run the risk of getting subpar paramedics who have only just done enough to pass because they didn't really want to do it in the first place and who have only minimum knowledge or interest in the practice of paramedicine (again, enough to tick the boxes until they get on an engine and don't have to play paramedic). I recall one story a few weeks back where a very high percentage of firefighter/paramedic candidates failed a pharmacology exam (I think it was about 2 out of 14 that passed). By forcing firefighers to become paramedics you ultimately run the risk of providing substandard care by using substandard providers whos interest or knowledge in paramedicine is only the barest minimum required to keep thier job. My father, cousin, brother, two greatgrandfathers and uncle are/were firefighters. They were experts at thier job because all they did was supression and rescue. I cannot see how you can create the same calibre of practitioner out of somebody who is forced to do two jobs - be a firefighter and a paramedic. It makes no sense.
MemphisE34a Posted October 19, 2008 Posted October 19, 2008 As for the vitriol found here, I believe you are overstating it. You didn't think you could find intelligent professional discussion here because of it? Did you try? Did you try to have an intelligent medical discussion? Leave your bunker gear at the door and just be a medical professional like the rest of us, and you will find more intelligent medical discussion here than most anyplace else. But if you strut around with a chip on your red helmet, you reap what you sow. There are many fire and volunteer providers here at the City who have been here a long time, and they find plenty of intelligent professional discussion. Are they that much better than you? Or is your idea of intelligent discussion different than ours? Maybe you are too needy to get satisfaction from intelligent professional discussion that doesn't involve the back-slapping fire "brotherhood" nonsense? I dunno. I think you just weren't trying, which is a shame, because obviously you're a smart and well spoken guy that could be an asset here if you would drop the attitude. Its funny that many of you think the wedge that is driven in between fire and EMS in joint systems is the sole fault of "firemonkeys." You guys have steered this thread completely off topic. Originally the problem was with a fire department teaching its own people. Now nearly everyone has proven you are against the fire based EMS concept to begin with regardless of where training comes from. Barry came on here and did a very good job of talking about our EMS system and he did so with absolutely no attitude what so ever. You have a problem with him because he wears bunker gear and works in a system that you feel is inferior. Do we have a perfect system? No, but you don't either. Worry about your own agencies problems. Nothing we do affects any of the people in this thread complaining about it. Your really not as important as you think you are.
p3medic Posted October 19, 2008 Posted October 19, 2008 Actually it does affect us. The IAFF and fire departments like yours is on a nation wide quest of fire based EMS for all. It is NOT the best way to deliver EMS, however it is in the fire services best interest and is the agenda of your Union.
VentMedic Posted October 19, 2008 Author Posted October 19, 2008 Barry's attitude was declared in his first paragraph with Nothing we do affects any of the people in this thread complaining about it. You really don't get it? I guess that could be the base for the whole discussion. You are a FF arguing about something you have not a clue about as evidenced by your posts. You have demonstrated no understanding about the Paramedic as being part of the medical community and no understanding of the NREMT. Even the way your friend had to defend you by saying: Nothing we do affects any of the people in this thread complaining about it. Again, you repeat your lack of respect for Paramedics or any EMS professional. Your really not as important as you think you are. So, are you against having these extra Paramedics in your service? Or, will you be more likely to show how superior you are to them because you are a Fire Lt. to make up for the lack of a Paramedic patch on your uniform? Nothing you have posted has shown any support or a welcoming mat for them. Considering your attitude, I truly do hope they are only applying because of the recruitment gimic as just a chance join the FD or it seems life for them will be pretty miserable if they say they want to be a paramedic because they enjoy the medical aspect of the job.
oneilljb Posted October 19, 2008 Posted October 19, 2008 VentMedic I am not sure how the 5-word phrase “my position as a firefighter” summarizes my attitude toward this topic or board. Perhaps I should have said “current job classification” or maybe “assignment” instead of “position.” For the record, I am still a paramedic and will continue to be a paramedic regardless of my job classification. As a child, I always had a list of things I wanted to be when I grow up. Paramedic still shares a tie with firefighter for first place if I ever get there. Regarding Bobby Kramer, I attempted to say, in a way not to appear to be a brown-noser, that I know him to be an excellent EMT. When we collaborated for a time, he made it a point to not only be adept in his skill level, but also familiar with the paramedic skills and protocols so he could more effectively assist the paramedics with which he worked. He and I are no longer on the same shift or even in the same district, but all reports indicate he will provide quick and competent patient care to any that requires it and will provide all the support needed, both as a supervisor and coworker, to the paramedics in his charge. Again, he is perfectly capable of defending himself, but I do not wish to allow any statement I make to be used unfairly against him or anyone else. Separately, could you provide a link to the information regarding accreditation? I am familiar with the existence of the education agenda of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, but not a deadline established by the National Registry. A deadline indicates a plan with specific requirements and I would love to read the plan. I must say thank you for the positive nod you provided regarding my post. Dustdevil I seem to remember discussion of some dispute regarding Seattle’s save data, but am unsure of the details. If you have access to the data, would you share a source so I may review it and more intelligently discuss the point? I will be willing to discuss the “vitriol” in another thread, of your choosing, because I think that discussion would detract from the original topic. Before we “step-outside,” as it were, I should state that I am in no way naive enough to believe that peer bashing is unique to one particular group. With your experience, as evidenced by your Myspace link and your photo album, I presume you share that belief. I also say thank you for your compliment (I think). Kiwimedic You have a valid point that I can see from both sides. When I have time, I will expand my thoughts on your post and perhaps shed some light on why I do not expect it to be as bas as you propose. Would you also provide a link to the story you referred to regarding the pharmacology exam. I must complete a research project for my degree and your statement may translate into an interesting hypothesis. Spenac Thanks, I may parrticipate for a while, but I make no promises.
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