FD Launches In-House Paramedic Education Program

[VentMedic]

I was speaking about this thread. You will not see me outside of this one. Unless of coarse someone starts another one bashing the Memphis Fire Department.

Nobody bashed your FD. You bashed your own FFs and Paramedics all by yourself. Take it up with your administration and news media if you have a problem with your department's stance with paramedics and EMS.

You still don't have a clue as to what this thread was about?

Are you really sure? I tried it once.

Did we really have to know you tried gay sex in a fire station?

[WolfmanHarris]

Whelp it took awhile to catch up as I wasn't following this thread until I saw how quickly it had grown and got curious. I may live to regret this.

This will likely be a long post and may seem redundant and old news to many of you. I've tried to keep paragraphs short so you can skim.

A couple of things. Let's have everyone put their genitalia away if possible and try to get some semblance of mature reasoned discussion out of this. E-34A, I'm sorry but I dump a big chunk of this right on your lap. MFDFFP was doing a decent job explaining the program, creating discussion and turning the other cheek on the good natured (and less than good natured) ribbing on FD. Man when you come out swinging to defend your department's reputation, which you obviously care about the intent is admirable, but the delivery is doing you and your department a disservice. I'm not saying you didn't have reason to get PO'ed, if I was an FF and new to these boards I'd likely take alot of the comments personally, but how are you going to convince anyone this way. If you wanted a pissing match and a place to vent you snagged that and all the power to you, if you want to prove a point take a deep breath and try again.

As a starting point you need to understand a few key points of contention. First, a great many of the people on these boards, myself included, do not believe that the Fire service is right group to administer and/or provide Emergency Medical Services. I also do not believe that private companies should be providing EMS either, nor should volunteer groups, but of course I come from a land of socialized medicine and high taxes. This is a key disagreement and the foundation of many different discussion on this and other EMS boards. If from the beginning you can recognize this key difference, accept that you won't agree on this point but still move forward and examine the specific issue that's great, but this is easier said than done.

A great many EMS providers, especially in the US, look at their various systems and see a great amount of disfunction that stems from a hodgepodge of service models, payment models, training standards and the like and a rightly frustrated. This frustration becomes apparent in many different discussion about EMS.

Fire takes a large share of the frustration from providers due to a few factors. The main one's that come to mind or the continued assertions by the IAFF that Fire-Rescue is the best provider for EMS. The policy of the IAFF is clear; they want EMS to be part of Fire and many departments are listening. Fire Department's are seeing a steady decline in traditional suppression duties and the remaining non-medical call volume will make it hard for departments to continue to justify their staffing and budgets. Combine this with the IAFF policies and the general lack of uniformity and sometimes even function in EMS the door is often left open for Fire to move in and take over.

The problems expand from here. Some departments including from what I read Memphis, are committed to fully integrated Fire and EMS into dual role providers and compared to what I've read of the issues with FDNY and Washington DC I commend their commitment. But once again this is where you'll find a fundamental disagreement. Can dual providers work AND advance EMS as a profession. Obviously in a department that is honestly committed to this, they'll say yes. However, many, myself included will disagree.

The changes I've seen in EMS in just the two years I've spent in school have been intense and exciting. I couldn't imagine being able to fully dedicate myself to two very different roles (Fire/Rescue and Paramedicine) and not just be competent but excel and do them justice. And before any kneejerk reactions about studying harder or being more committed, I have an Honours in Philosophy and have maintained an 85%+ in Paramedic school until this point. Reading and studying are not what I'm talking about.

The problem is alot of Fire departments are not doing EMS justice. Whether it be services that take on EMS for the billing revenues, or use the increased budgets to increase the number of engines on the road while EMS response times and crews suffer, or departments that allow and even encourage an attitude of segregation between the EMS and Fire/Rescue divisions of the department, as long as some FD's treat EMS as a cash cow/bastard son, they will not be the proper home for EMS.

There is a role for Fire/Rescue at medical calls. Some calls do generally require tiered response and can benefit from First Responder (or EMT- trained FF's being on scene to assist. Or to respond when due to high EMS call volume Ambulance response will be delayed. What should not continue is FF's on scene, unable to transport being used to meet response times. EMS is still transport medicine in the vast majority of cases.

There is also a role from some cross-training. FF's should continue to receive some sort of advanced first aid training across the board. EMS should continue to receive awareness level training in haz-mat, extrication and the like. These should be done not to supplant anyone, but to enhance working relationships. Both Fire and EMS are in an exciting time from a technical/scientific standpoint that is rapidly making our individual jobs far more specialized. Whether it be advances in CBRN response, extrication from hybrid or fuel cell vehicles on the Fire-Rescue side, or CPAP/BiPAP and induced hypothermia on the EMS side things are constantly changing in Fire and EMS.

If I asked you, Lt. Kramer if you wanted a Firefighter on your crew who was not as thoroughly trained as he could be and not up to date on the latest in Firefighting I don't think you'd be inclined to say yes. I, and my Paramedic colleagues, would like you to see it from our end, that we in our profession don't want a large portion of the Paramedics in it to lacking in thorough training or to be holding the profession back because the reality of the time commitment needed to stay current and competent are more than they could possible commit too while doing Fire-Rescue full time as well. I don't actually fault FF/Medic's for being more committed to keeping up on the fire side of things. A mistake in a fire kills you and your crew, a mistake on the ambulance only kills your patient.

I hope I've been clear in explaining the root of many of the issues that are had by providers on this board and others with Fire-Based EMS. Hopefully this will help foster some understanding and a more mature discussion.

With that extremely long-winded preface out of the way, I'd like to draw my attention to the specifics of the Memphis FD's in house program. From what I understand of the how Memphis has been handling the combined EMS/Fire duties, there have been some excellent ideas. The academy mentorship program that was showcased in JEMS a few months back was interesting and showed more dedication to splitting the academy training between suppression and EMS than I'm used to seeing in Fire-EMS. And an in house training program seems like a natural extension of this.

From what MFDFFP has said early in the thread, your program seems to be doing some things right. Getting accreditation is a good start. Having dedicated class and ride time outside of work hours in another as the training won't be fitted in whenever its convenient.

Once again though, we find one of those issues where you'll likely find yourself in a mutually exclusive position from others here. Education standards. Regardless of how good your program is compared to others in Memphis, the state or even nationally, many here will argue that the standards nationwide are too low.

Anyways, I'd encourage everyone here to try to break the cycle of this argument and start a discussion. I'd like to hear about how Memphis is instituting their program and how they plan on fully and properly integrating Fire and EMS and it seems Lt. Kramer that we're in the unique position, through you to get that. Provided, you're willing to take part.

That's more than enough for me (and probably three or four others).

And with regards to balls.

Matthew Harris

Emergency Medical Responder

4yrs Campus First Responder, Trent University

Primary Care Paramedic STUDENT

Sir Sanford Fleming College

(ya, I'm new)

[spenac]

Are you really sure? I tried it once. Now I KNOW I am not gay. Didn't like it a bit. :roll:

"Lt. Robert Kramer

Engine Co. 34-A

Memphis FIRE

901-494-9437 "

I am sure your citizens will enjoy that you as a leader of their emergency system have chosen to use your place of employment for sexual exploration. Please think before you type. What you say here not only can come back to haunt you, your department, but also both the fire and the EMS professions.

[MemphisE34a]

"Lt. Robert Kramer

Engine Co. 34-A

Memphis FIRE

901-494-9437 "

I am sure your citizens will enjoy that you as a leader of their emergency system have chosen to use your place of employment for sexual exploration. Please think before you type. What you say here not only can come back to haunt you, your department, but also both the fire and the EMS professions.

I guess some of you don't understand saracasm and good ole firehouse humor. Some of you should really lighten up a little.

[Dustdevil]

I guess some of you don't understand saracasm and good ole firehouse humor. Some of you should really lighten up a little.

It was the first "humour" that you displayed in twenty-one posts, so it's not like you can expect anyone to recognise your "humour" yet. Perhaps if you lightened up a little more often, we would recognise it when you do.

[Chief1C]

Ohh.. I see the guy has his info posted on his own. Never mind Hal9000... It's his own fault.. That'll be on some mens room wall somewhere.

[MemphisE34a]

Mr Harris,

I enjoyed reading your post. You seem to be able to see light at both ends of tunnel and take everything in stride. I even enjoyed the occasional quips you inserted.

It seems a great many people in here are declaring failure before it has even begun. If that is due to previous experiences or stuff they have heard from other departments, so be it. It is not the fault of firefighters, fire departments, or paramedics working there that national standards are too low if that is even indeed the case. There were several other generalizations made as well, but it is not worth rehashing them.

As I stated, I give everyone a fair shake. I have not been argumentative with anyone in here because they are a paramedic, but because they come across anyway like their shit doesn't stink and they have all the answers based on generalizations, half truths, rumors, and news articles - non of which are usually very factual, all the while hiding behind some made up name.

As to any specific questions about of our program, if mfdffp is who I think he is, he should be intimately aware of all of the specifics. He or Barry will be able to answer much better than I if you'll post what you want to know.

Best of luck in paramedic school.

[spenac]

I guess some of you don't understand saracasm and good ole firehouse humor. Some of you should really lighten up a little.

I assure you the public would not understand it as humor. If they did they would still it was wrong. Again I implore you to think before you type so as not to harm either your fire profession or my EMS profession.

We actually had a incident were some of the forum humor was qouted and used out of context. It really looked bad on the profession. I do not remember if it was this site or another professional site I frequent. Can you imagine the public outcry if the Memphis news found your post? So please for you , your department and our two professions think before you type. I do not want anyone to lose a job.

[WolfmanHarris]

Mr Harris,

I enjoyed reading your post. You seem to be able to see light at both ends of tunnel and take everything in stride. I even enjoyed the occasional quips you inserted.

I aim to please.

It seems a great many people in here are declaring failure before it has even begun. If that is due to previous experiences or stuff they have heard from other departments, so be it.

I'm not sure if it's a matter of declaring failure before something has begun, at least with regards to fire based EMS as much as its looking at the options presented and not liking them, or feeling that Fire-based is fixing something that wasn't broken. With regards to Memphis' training plan, I'm willing to grant you that. I know I look at any article where a service (Fire or otherwise) is trying something new that isn't putting more Ambulances on the road, to decrease response times, etc. I roll my eyes pretty quick. I know I'm not alone in this and this might have been what happened for some here.

It is not the fault of firefighters, fire departments, or paramedics working there that national standards are too low if that is even indeed the case. There were several other generalizations made as well, but it is not worth rehashing them.

You're partially right. It's not the exclusive fault of the Fire Department or the individual providers. Many different stakeholders pulling in different directions are responsible for the mess that is EMS. As I said, Fire pulls in one direction to take on EMS for budget and staffing reasons. But private services/hospitals, etc. pull just as hard in others by wanting to keep wages low by keeping the number of ALS providers low and the turnover high. Volunteer services help by pulling against increased education standards (I'm not trying to knock volunteers here) knowing that a degree program requirements or even a multi-year diploma will kill their volunteer pool. (How could it not? You just can't ask that much.) The key though is to as a facet of the profession take that section of responsibility and rather than working against the other facets of EMS, find the best way to work with them for the betterment of the profession. We can disagree on fire vs. third service vs. private vs. flying monkeys all we want, but lets find the areas where we can agree and pull together.

As I stated, I give everyone a fair shake. I have not been argumentative with anyone in here because they are a paramedic, but because they come across anyway like their shit doesn't stink and they have all the answers based on generalizations, half truths, rumors, and news articles - non of which are usually very factual, all the while hiding behind some made up name.

Hey man, somebody's gotta declare a ceasefire first if this is going to go somewhere. If I wanted to get yelled at I'd look at my fiance after she got dressed and say "That? Really?"

As to any specific questions about of our program, if mfdffp is who I think he is, he should be intimately aware of all of the specifics. He or Barry will be able to answer much better than I if you'll post what you want to know.

All righty, let's look at some specifics. Is there a course outline/syllabus that's publicly available that could be posted? That way we can lay it out side by side with one from a comparable college and look at the two program based on their merits.

What about a list of required texts? Clinical sites and hours? Lab/teaching facilities and equipment? Pre-requisites?

If you or MFDFFP is willing to do the digging on your end and toss u what info you can, I'm willing to go digging/e-mailing with local Memphis college programs to grab that and I'm not even in the country.

Hey or we could keep finding fault with each other. That's fun too.

For example, I'm just a fatty with an extra 25lbs still to lose. Stupid fatty! Wait a second...

[VentMedic]

As the article mentioned and the point I have been attempting to make is that this will be the first program offered outside of the college system. TN has been prided in the education circles for having programs accredited by CAAHEP and college based. As seen in other states, once an exception allows for deviation from a previously established standard, there is no turning back.

Hopefully Memphis Fire will be able to meet the requirements for accreditation if the NREMT is their Paramedic exam. However, they may also only need their program for 3 years as their plans were stated for that time frame. That will bring them to the NREMT deadline.

As previously stated this is not just a "FIRE" issue but will soon be an issue that will come up again as another program will also want to establish a PDQ medic mart in the neighborhood. We have also gone through 3 very long decades of FDs and ambulance services training their own to where we finally saw a decline in that practice but still had the "career schools" to deal with. I would hate to see another back slide further from the goal of obtaining a college based education standard for some credibility in the eyes of the legislators and medical professionals.