If you could change one thing in EMS .......................

[VentMedic]

Reimbursement! Unlike our economy, the "trickle down effect" would work here. If we get enough reimbursement for the calls we do, then we can afford to pay the medics what we are truly worth.

If you got paid just on the national average for Paramedic education in the U.S. as the "hours of training" stands currently, you would have a hard time justifying barely more than minimum wage.

This is the only licensed medical profession that does not require at the minimum an Associates degree for entry. Even the very few certified medical professions left require a year of education for a certificate. These are nationally accredited and accepted standards for other medical professionals. Other professions have learned that through education, they can get reimbursement. Other medical professionals may be able to list all the "skills" the Paramedic possesses plus many of their own as well as the education to back up everything they can do.

Why should insurances pay more and think that will make the 13 week patch medic get a higher education or improve the quality of care provided? What national oversight agency is going to ensure that? What quality control standards has EMS instituted as a profession to adequately monitor consistency of care? Even with those that are in place, rarely are they adhered to because of poor oversight of the industry or the failure to police our own.

Raising the pay without raising the education standards will only encourage people to seek out quicker medic mills to get a chance at the higher paying jobs. Haven't we learned anything from the FDs? Higher paid and pretty trucks does not always equal better EMS or patient care.

[Dustdevil]

If we get enough reimbursement for the calls we do, then we can afford to pay the medics what we are truly worth.

Truly an intelligent theory! And plus 5 for considering it from a unique angle. But unfortunately, you are wrong. All the other medical professions grew BEFORE reimbursement improved. Had Respiratory Therapy remained an OJT job for orderlies, they would still be paid minimum wage, and reimbursement would reflect that. Physician Assistants came out of nowhere to establish themselves as a profession and demand reimbursement where there was none before.

You can't say, "Hey, give us money and we'll improve!" That doesn't work. That's like going to an engineering firm and saying, "Hey, I dropped out of high school, and I suck as a brick layer, but if you'll pay for it, I'll become an engineer!" You're going to get laughed out of the office. You have to first prove you are worthy. You have to prove that you are capable of improving. The education onus is on you, not medicare.

Reimburse ˌrē-əm-ˈbərs transitive verb.

1 : to pay back to someone : repay

2 : to make restoration or payment of an equivalent to

syn: pay

Reimbursement is not an investment in the future. Reimbursement is payment for services already rendered. Reimbursement -- like respect -- is not given. It is earned. It is up to you to invest in your future.

[crotchitymedic1986]

OK, but how many other professions (right now) can you earn a 40-60k base with no college degree -- not to mention the fact that you can work 2 jobs and earn more --- if you are an accountant or bank teller working mon-fri -- it is hard to make a sizeable second income. Or to put it another way, with the education you have right now, what other profession could you do and make more money -- realistically ?

[VentMedic]

OK, but how many other professions (right now) can you earn a 40-60k base with no college degree -- not to mention the fact that you can work 2 jobs and earn more --- if you are an accountant or bank teller working mon-fri -- it is hard to make a sizeable second income. Or to put it another way, with the education you have right now, what other profession could you do and make more money -- realistically ?

Pick just about any of the industrial trades and you can easily earn that much. Although, even many welders now have college degrees. Heavy equipment operators, coal miners, auto workers, commercial divers, ambitious salespeople etc can all make that amount with just a regular work schedule and have no need to work 2 or 3 extra jobs. You also have to factor in that the wages for for EMS on not based on a 40 hour work week.

There is also something to be said for the professionals that can make that much in 40 hour work weeks and have a quality personal life to match a rewarding professional career.

[Dustdevil]

OK, but how many other professions (right now) can you earn a 40-60k base with no college degree...

What do you mean by "other professions"?

You seem to be missing the whole point of the conversation, which is that EMS is not a profession. It's just a job, like changing the oil in cars or collecting garbage off the curbside. The difference being that the garbage men make more than us.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Well again, to play devils advocate solely, and not intending to put down anyones arguement -- a common problem that i see with EMS folks is this career path: you graduate high school with the dream of being a millionaire by age 30. you drop out of college, get into ems, work it a few years. as the age of 30 gets closer, some medics become bitter (to quote obama --lol) and lash out at their EMS job, because they dont make as much money as they think they should.

My question was very specific, when i asked what profession could you earn more money at with the education you have now --IN THIS ECONOMY. many of the jobs that were listed require skills that you may have, but most medics do not. Many of the sectors that you described are laying off people left and right and are not paying the rates they did years ago (construction, sales, retail). I didnt ask what profession you could jump into with some extra training.

Your point about per hour pay is valid, but you knew that when you signed up --- its not like anyone changed the rules mdstream on any of us. And things have vastly improved since when i got started. I made less than $12k/year to work 24 on 24 off without any benefits-- and thought i was rich when i got my first 911 job that paid 19k/year with benefits (as a medic).

You have to remember that our profession, and yes i do call it a profession, is only some 40+ years old. It is still in its infancy. Unless you have a different definition of "profession" than I do, which is entirely possible:

pro⋅fes⋅sion   /prəˈfɛʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pruh-fesh-uhn] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science: the profession of teaching. Compare learned profession.

2. any vocation or business.

3. the body of persons engaged in an occupation or calling: to be respected by the medical profession.

4. the act of professing; avowal; a declaration, whether true or false: professions of dedication.

5. the declaration of belief in or acceptance of religion or a faith: the profession of Christianity.

6. a religion or faith professed.

7. the declaration made on entering into membership of a church or

[WolfmanHarris]

And their smelliest cargo comes packaged for them for easy transport. No fuss, no muss.

Ya I'm with the others on this, asking for more reimbursement as the route to better pay and the like seems real cart before the horse thinking. It also begs the question, why would increased revenue for a service result in increased pay/benefits for staff? Any private company exists to make a profit first and even the best employer is going to relish the chance to make more. And as we all know, EMS is not currently overrun with the best employers.

That's not to say that FD, 3rd service, volunteer or any other non-profit model would necessarily see increased pay as being top of their list with increased revenue. Budgets are set within government from the total taxbase and money making departments fund those with zero revenue (for example, parking tickets partially parks or something). How many VFD's out there have a new apparatus every few years with all the bells and whistles while still paying nothing to their staff? Where's the motivation? When they can have new medics in 13 wks (which by the way, I did not know was possible. I knew education was shorter in alot of the US, but did not realize it was the extreme some places) why work that hard to keep them for a whole career?

Sure individual services might take turns increasing standards to attract staff, but as a whole, I can't see how it would affect a sea change in the industry.

It seems (and no offense intended to my respected elders) that behind the services themselves which see increased education as costing them more money in the end in wages, that the next biggest group against education are those that went through the current education system and turned out "just fine." Those who worry that if education were increased because its needed, then by implication they must NOT be doing well enough.

[crotchitymedic1986]

I am not against more education, but i do not think it automatically produces more income. Look at nursing for instance, it has pretty much been a four year degree profession since the late 70's, but wages were not driven up until a shortage of employees occured. This was a generational shift, when my generation of women started taking new jobs other than teacher, mommy, or nurse.

We have the same shortage in EMS right now, but it isnt apparant because we all work two jobs. If you could get all medics to stop working two jobs for a 6 month period in a large region or nationally (will never happen) our pay would rise dramatically. How many positions were staffed by a part-timer from the fire department or someone working overtime at your provider today ?

[jbanagas]

No California is not a 13 week cram session anymore, not since it became a registry state, I beieve we have two year progams now, but anywho, classes are not filling up as fast as the two year RN program, so there is a significant shortage of paramedics here, but in order to make a livable wage you have to be crossed trained and become a firefighter/paramedic, and I don't think that is going to change anytime soon, as far as the formal education is concerned most departments prefer A.S. in fire scinece, but a H.S. diplom or GED will meet the requirmnts of the job flyer.

[spenac]

No California is not a 13 week cram session anymore, not since it became a registry state,.

Actually you can still take NR with the short course. All it is is a test. Nothing more.