triemal04 Posted December 21, 2008 Posted December 21, 2008 Actually, he's kind of right. And kind of wrong too, but go figure. Actually working in the field and being able to put into practice all the things that you have learned in the classroom will definitely help you really understand them, and at the same time you will be learning a whole lot that is never covered in texts or the classroom. So I'm all for extending the amount of time that is required for a (paramedic) internship. Of course all that time doesn't matter if there isn't some kind of foundation of knowledge for you to rely on; it doesn't matter if you are able to run a 12-lead if you aren't able to fully and accurately interpret it and integrate that interpretation into your pt care. So cutting class time is ridiculous; extend it for the love of god! Before you ever enter the field you should already know all you can about the human body and as much medicine as possible; the field is just where you put that knowledge into practise. But it's pointless to do that if you never had the knowledge in the first place. In a perfect world I'd love to see the internship (following a 18-24 month period of classroom and clinical rotations) be something similar to a doctors internship or residency, albeit on a shorter timeline. Say 12 months of full-time work on an ambulance as the third person. By the end of that the potential paramedic should not only have a good medical education but a wealth of field experience to go with that. Win win situation. Course that'd only happen in a dream world...
BushyFromOz Posted December 22, 2008 Posted December 22, 2008 In a perfect world I'd love to see the internship (following a 18-24 month period of classroom and clinical rotations) be something similar to a doctors internship or residency, albeit on a shorter timeline. Say 12 months of full-time work on an ambulance as the third person. By the end of that the potential paramedic should not only have a good medical education but a wealth of field experience to go with that. Win win situation. Course that'd only happen in a dream world... I must be in it then... Education = Bachelor of pe-hospital care to even meet the job application criteria Student time = 2 year Graduate program working on road. ist 6 months under supervision of a clinical instructor and a further 4 weeks with a c every 6momths there after. Performance reviews every 6 months and options to be early exited by the clinical department at 18 months if clinically competent. Seems to me that that there a lot of people here that think and education and training is either one of "book learnin" or experience, why cant it be both?? I know, guess which one is easier and more glamorous...........
WolfmanHarris Posted December 22, 2008 Posted December 22, 2008 Bushy... I have never wanted to come to Australia as much as I do right now. I don't really want to do another 6 years of school on top of the six I've done, but wow, it sounds like it would be worthwhile. I want that education. Edit: So I asked the fiancee what she thought of heading to Australia so I can go to school again. She was not so impressed with the prospect of being to only breadwinner for any more than the five months left of school here. Moving would likely cost me a marriage. So you can see it would be a pickle of a decision.
triemal04 Posted December 22, 2008 Posted December 22, 2008 Frickin' aussies...first you come out with the huge cans of beer and now you come out with a solid way to teach paramedics... :toothy7: I should have said that it'd only be mandatory in the US in a dream world.
Dustdevil Posted December 22, 2008 Posted December 22, 2008 Actually, he's kind of right. And kind of wrong too, but go figure. Actually working in the field and being able to put into practice all the things that you have learned in the classroom will definitely help you really understand them, and at the same time you will be learning a whole lot that is never covered in texts or the classroom. So I'm all for extending the amount of time that is required for a (paramedic) internship. You make an excellent point, and one that I have made for years. Paramedic education absolutely does need a lot more hands-on experience than is currently given in even the best schools. Unfortunately, we currently operate on the bogus theory that graduates are going to go directly into an immediate internship of intense experience, monitored and guided by an experienced and well educated mentor. The reality is that this RARELY happens. Most new grads go either to the unemployment line for an extended period, to a low volume volly squad with no qualified mentors, to a transfer ambulance with no acute care opportunities, or straight to an emergency truck, partnered with an EMT-B who doesn't know dick. Experience -- to the point of competence -- should be part of the initial educational effort, not something for the new grad to work out on his own. But the truth is, the greater your educational foundation is, the less experience you need to attain competence. Consequently, any reduction of classroom time is counterproductive to your experiential goals. Bottom line is, only a complete idiot would suggest that "we don't need all that book learnin". What did you ever say to me? You insulted my profession. You therefore insulted me.
triemal04 Posted December 22, 2008 Posted December 22, 2008 You make an excellent point, and one that I have made for years. Paramedic education absolutely does need a lot more hands-on experience than is currently given in even the best schools. Unfortunately, we currently operate on the bogus theory that graduates are going to go directly into an immediate internship of intense experience, monitored and guided by an experienced and well educated mentor. The reality is that this RARELY happens. Most new grads go either to the unemployment line for an extended period, to a low volume volly squad with no qualified mentors, to a transfer ambulance with no acute care opportunities, or straight to an emergency truck, partnered with an EMT-B who doesn't know dick. Experience -- to the point of competence -- should be part of the initial educational effort, not something for the new grad to work out on his own. But the truth is, the greater your educational foundation is, the less experience you need to attain competence. Consequently, any reduction of classroom time is counterproductive to your experiential goals. Bottom line is, only a complete idiot would suggest that "we don't need all that book learnin". What did you ever say to me? You insulted my profession. You therefore insulted me. Can't really argue all that much here. In my part of the world the work is available for those who want it, (which means for those who are willing to relocate within the state) but there are far, far to many people that I've seen and dealt with who's only pre-hospital experience was their paramedic internship which concluded somewhere between 6 and 12 months before. Skills and knowledge both atrophy if not used...this is recognized in most every other field...why not in EMS? I think part of the problem that we face with newly minted "paramedics" lacking true field experience can be blamed on the insistence that the standards for EMS have not progressed past the 70's; all that is required by the NREMT (which way to many states base their standards off of) is a 200 hour internship...fine if all you're doing is starting an IV or maybe intubating someone who's already dead...but try cramming everything that we are expected to know into that amount of time now...ridiculous. As is the idea that every service has a well thought out training program for their new medics...hell, just look at some of the threads here and you can see the fallacy in that! I do have to argue a bit with the spending enough time in the field for competency part...at least a bit. To really get to the level of being a truly competent and experienced paramedic will take much longer than even a full year...somewhere around 5 is what I've always figured (and is fairly accurate from my perspective). Spend enough time during the educational process to be well-rounded and acceptable, absolutely, but there does come a point that you need to be able to move on. Don't know...guess the bottom line is that what we are expected to know is so much more than it was when paramedicine first was thought of, and the tools we have are so much more advanced (which means that they will tell us more, which means that we need to know more) that it's asinine to think that it's possible to learn all that's neccasary in the field. Or in the classroom.
ambodriver Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Hmm... I would not want a couple basics with 14 days of training evaluating me! *Referring to BLS unit. I don't know how they would even pass the test. lol that joke of a test? I probably could have past it without even going to class. ha
Kiwiology Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 (edited) lol that joke of a test? I probably could have past it without even going to class. ha A few I know (myself included) who operate at less than ALS level have consistently scored 80-90+ percent on practice National Registry Paramedic written tests. Our new assessment format here for all Officers not just Intensive Care (ALS) includes written, practical, simulation and viva-voce assessments Edited January 23, 2010 by kiwimedic
scubanurse Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 As far as accelerated courses go... I don't really see the problem with them in general. This summer I am planning on taking several accelerated college courses. One is 2 weeks long and meets for 4-hours 5 days a week and the other is 3 weeks and meets for 3 hours 5 days a week. Under some of the arguments I have read, because I am taking an accelerated communications course and literature course, I won't have the education I should have? I don't see the logic in this. If it is still the same hours as a full semester, what is the problem with it? I know a few programs, the one I am in as well, who do two 8-week quarters instead of a 16 week semester and you only take 2 classes at a time but still the same credit hours as the 16-week one, essentially an accelerated college semester. If it is still meeting the hour requirements, what's the big deal with how those hours are broken up? Back in the day, I took a 5-week EMT-B course. 5 days a week for 5 weeks and I was done. I passed, and I think I was a pretty competent EMT and went on to be a pretty good I. If the education standards are being met, what's the big deal? Now if this is an argument about what the minimum standards are, that's a different story. I think EMT-B's can be a great asset to an EMS system. I think the ideal ambulance would be 1 medic and 1 basic. Not every call needs ALS care, (I'm thinking 2am nose bleed call where the bleeding has stopped) and not every call can go BLS. I have seen this type of system work well in a busy 911 area. Basics have a place in EMS, and more than just chauffeuring the medic around. Just my 2 cents for what they're worth...
AnthonyM83 Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 Do not judge an EMT class on how far the spread the EMT hours out (over a matter of weeks or months). I went to community college EMT. Two quarters. Instructors were great people. CRAP education and preparation. Cookbook to core. Waste of time spreading that out. One only studied right before the exams, anyway (or not at all and still passed), because cookbook is easy. I continuously get ride-along students from a local accelerated program here with students who have really impressed me. I can pick out the ones who went to that school. They can explain nitro in terms of basic pre-load and do basic critical thinking better than most EMTs. They know their academics and their skills. It's still basic, since it's EMT, but it's a 3-week program, and if I had to choose, I would prefer to be treated by students from that program, whether traumatic or medical (if it had to be at EMT level). This might be the exception, not the rule. But even then, recognize there are exceptions. Also, told they have much much higher NREMT pass rates. So, that's increased academics, field performance, and testing rates (whereas some only have quality in one of them). Before knowing about this program, I was against shorter programs. 1
Recommended Posts