Excessive police force and medical care

[Dustdevil]

...there's more than one video online of the taser being used in lieu of any force.

I'm good with that. Like Bushy, given the choice of a black eye or broken arm, or a few seconds of being Tased, I'm still choosing the Taser.

[mediccjh]

I'll have to dig for the research, but no healthy individual shot with a Taser has ever died. Those who have died after being hit with a Taser were either on drugs or had cardiac issues.

Personally, if I have a person shot by a Taser, I work it up ALS.

[Richard B the EMT]

Just mentioning in passing: Abner Luima (spelling?) a decade ago, was assaulted in a police station by officers of the NYPD, who had pushed the handle of a plunger up his anus, causing internal damage. Several NYPD police officers went to jail because of this.

Also, in the news nowadays in NYC, another man has claimed to have been assaulted, similarly, by cops sticking an expandable type police baton up his rectum, also causing internal damage. The grand jury has indited several officers, and, as of this posting, are awaiting trial dates.

[Doczilla]

It is very difficult to look at a patient and his injuries, after all is said and done, and say whether excessive force was used (the above cited case involving a toilet plunger is an obvious exception). I think that these ER docs may be stepping out of their lane by saying so. The ER doc has no right to armchair quarterback the officer's decisions when he wasn't present for the injury any more than the press or some idiot citizen. Anyone who wasn't there should bite their tongue and let people who know what they are talking about look it over. It's like when the ICU doc comes down to the ER and says, "you told me this patient was hypotensive, but his blood pressure is fine." Yeah, jackass, because I treated it. It's easy to look at the subject after all the fight's been taken out of him and say, "he's calm, why did you taser him?"

Folks are quick to shout "police brutality", but notice how when an officer dies in the line of duty, there aren't people shouting in the street that he should have shot the suspect.

Use of force is a tactical decision, not a medical one. ER docs do not generally have any training on use of force unless they work with a SWAT team on a regular basis. You can't look at a bruise or broken bone and say it wasn't necessary unless you witnessed the subject's behavior AT THE TIME. All departments have a policy on review of the use of force, and the people who review these are officers who can put themselves in the arresting officer's shoes and know all the options available to the officers.

'zilla

[FormerEMSLT297]

I equate this with the AACP allowing MD's to ask parents if guns are in the homes, and berate them about it.... Seems to me some left wing liberal doctors are overstepping their boundries...

It took me to become a cop, and watch and hear all the horror stories to learn just what it takes to physically subdue a suspect high on crack or PCP...

I remember being a street medic years ago and watching a police takedown literally from beginning to end and thinking boy they went too far, I then told one of the cops my impression and he explained why they did what they did and how it could have gone wrong... Armed with his side of the story so to speak, I changed my mind....

Absent plungers up rectums, and physically rubbing OC onto peoples eyes with Q-tips, or blatantly wailing away at someone who is surrendering,, you swing at me with a fist you are going to get hit with a stick, beanbag gun, pepper spray whatever...

You come at me with a knife or gun, you WILL get shot... That is just the way it is.... (we do not have tasers).... life lessons from the front lines of law enforcement....

Ohh and PS, NEWSFLASH,,,, Suspects lie about cops beating them to try to get out of things...

[FormerEMSLT297]

Like foe example the suspect with a butcher knife who was shot multiple times with a .38 and he still managed to run forward and stab an officer to death,, he ended up with i think 18 plus holes in him,, ask the widow of that officer if she thinks the cops shot him too many times... or

The cops in NYC that went to a family dispute and one officer was thrown thru a plate glasss table lacerated his femoral artery and bled out right in the suspects living room..... bet that officers partner/wife wished thay had hit him harder before he threw the officer to his death...

If I learned one thing when i am in a violent confrontation it is this,, do not give the bad guy a chance to get your gun. or stab you or choke oy. Hit him/her AS HARD as you can until you gain compliance. Hopefully the first or second shot will be enought to stop him, no 50%-75% you hit him with 100% full force and end it.

We as police officers DO NOT GET PAID TO LOSE.

Stay safe

Former

[n0ssb]

Gee Guys and Girls--Unless you have walked in the shoes of a Police Officer--what looks or appears to be excessive force may not of been at all..

And if it was for the fighting scuffling involved in taking a suspect down and getting him cuffed, EMS wouldn't have any thing to do or be part of the action at times.. 8)

Now I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but i be one of those that never did anything that would cause excessive harm to a suspect..You are allowed to take the necessary steps to effect and arrests and i never went above that line

[spenac]

Minimum amount of force necessary to gain control. That rule even applys to us in EMS if assaulted.

Criminals understand that to. When in LE if someone hollered camera on scene, the criminal who had been beating the hell out of the officers would just drop so the camera would only catch the officers appearing to beat the poor innocent helpless criminal. It is hard to turn off after you have been fighting and have adrenalin flowing but you must.

So can a person that did not see what really happen make an accurate judgement? No unless like was brought up a broomstick, but even that could have been self inflicted.

[CBEMT]

Personally, if I have a person shot by a Taser, I work it up ALS.

We have a whole separate protocol just for this. It requires establishing an IV and cardiac monitoring, and consideration for spinal immobilization if the patient fell without protecting themselves. If the barbs are still attached to skin, stabilize and secure as impaled objects.

[Lone Star]

A few years ago, I had been called to the local ER to transport a psych patient to a 'more appropriate facility. On arrival, we found the observation room completely in shambles, and the patient in 4 point restraints.

As I approached the patient, I was spit on, verbally abused, as well as threatened. Needless to say, I called for security to assist transferring the patient to the cot. During the transfer, the patient was able to inflict some injury to myself and my partner.

It goes without saying, that the patient was transported in restraints. On arrival to the recieving facility, the charge nurse demanded to know why the patient was in restraints, and in some rather 'colorful language', proceeded to tell my partner and myself that restraints weren't necessary, and she didn't care WHO ordered them. She went on to DEMAND an IMMEDIATE discontinuation of the restraints.

We tried to tell the nurse that the patient was violent, and thats why the restraints were used. (we also had a surgical mask in place for the spitting).

Well, to make a long story short, we complied with the nurse's 'demands' and had already gotten the necessary signature on our PCR. Since the protocol obligations for transfer of patient care had been met, we started to release the patient from the restraints.

Once the restraints had been removed, and we were on our way out of the facility, the patient turned to the nurse......and punched her right in the mouth!

Let's hope that the next time a 'road crew' brings a patient in wearing restraints, that nurse will be a little more 'understanding' with transport orders from the sending facility, as well as the 'road crews' wanting to be safe during transport!