December Ambulance Crash Log

[crotchitymedic1986]

you made my point exactly. Because ambulance accidents are the number one killer of our people, it should warrant further study.

I would also like to note for all of you who dont believe anything until there is a scientific study: make sure you are being honest about that. Go back and read the threads about DC EMS (or any EMS) and patient deaths. Everyone was quick to judge and condemn those providers, without any scientific study. You read a news report, and made a conclusion regarding the quality of care at those providers. You had no statistics to back up your opinion.

[Britt207]

Although I am starting to try very hard to avoid crotchity’s threads, as I find them devoid of any scientific basis and the way he presents his thoughts are based more on opinion than fact, I looked at this one because it was getting much attention.. It appears that was my first mistake.

My second (and hopefully last) mistake on this thread is actually feeling like I have to comment on it.

First, to Crotchity:

Once again, you have started a thread with no evidence to support your comments, and then you add to it as other question your intent, changing the focus as you go. Bcause of this I question your intent of your threads – what usually has the potential to evolve into a positive discussion on what changes we could make as EMS providers and what some regions are doing to improve service, ends up in a thread where you refuse to acknowledge most posters, you belittle those who directly ask you for facts and clarification, and rather than trying to lead the thread back to discussion which could improve EMS, you hijack it further.

Your first post:

“Here is a link to a site that maintains an ambulance crash log. December's accidents will pop-up with this link, and you can search all previous months. If I get bored today, I might count up all of 2008's crashes to get an injury and death count. Of course, those crashes that are listed are voluntarily emailed to the site, it is not an all-inclusive list:

http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman2/publish/...-crashes.shtml”

After being asked to clarify your thread, you responded:

“If you extrapolate those numbers out for just those who were injured, to an annual statistic, you would come up with 576 people injured on an annual basis, which on it's face seems low. But if I told you that a piece of equipment that was common to ambulances was going to have a malfunction this year that would result in close to 600 injuries, wouldnt you do something about that piece of equipment ?

These accidents are still the number one killer of our personnel, what does your service do to reduce accidents ?”

And…

“Yes i did break my promise, but it was only at the request of the crotchies who stated they could not go a week without my posts. So to make everyone happy, I am not posting any controversial topics until 2009. You will note that these topics are all warm and fuzzy, and not offensive.”

“These accidents are still the number one killer of our personnel, what does your service do to reduce accidents ?”

Then, you sidetrack the thread with:

“the most critical call you can respond to is a cardiac arrest, and they are already dead.”

Now… let’s look at the posts asking you to clarify:

Reaper said:

“And the point of all of this is?”

“How are statistics preventing it?”

BEorP said:

“crotchity, if your intentions are to do something useful for the profession then I cannot fault you for that. You are kidding yourself and misleading members of this site if you think that the numbers you are citing mean anything.

Please review the literature on this issue, as many of the things that you are making guesses on have been examined in scientific studies.”

Akflightmedic said:

“Care to explain this one? I never viewed an arrest as the most critical...”

“Read any journals or studies regarding cardiac arrests lately??”

Now, to the basis of my post…

Crotchity, you did not provide any factual basis for your comments. You provided no studies, no evidence, no background to your comments. Yet, when people requested it from you (which, as the original poster, you should have been prepared to do) you did not provide any. You waited until someone else took the time which you should have done, and provided a number of studies (thank you BEorP).

You made comments that you could not back up with facts, like:

“These accidents are still the number one killer of our personnel, what does your service do to reduce accidents ?”

“the most critical call you can respond to is a cardiac arrest, and they are already dead.”

Where are the published studies to confirm this and why haven’t YOU posted them?

Instead of providing the thread with constructive dialogue, you present:

“Yes i did break my promise, but it was only at the request of the crotchies who stated they could not go a week without my posts.”

Oh please…. For the most part, we are adults on this site, and your continued reference to your groupies is childish and annoying… I highly doubt that anyone on this site can’t go a week without your posts. I suggest that whoever they are, if they truly are not the voices in your head, that they seek medical attention for their addiction, as it is unhealthy to be that dependent.

And, when specifically asked to clarify (as per akflightmedic, above), you respond with “As usual for AK; too bad.”

I will not do your homework for you. If you are going to start a thread, have the facts to present, and when others ask for clarification and further explanation, I would like to see you back up your comments with facts.

The fact that you continue to NOT present facts, and that you get defensive when asked again and again makes me question your reasons for being on this site.

It appears to me that you would prefer to be the centre of attention through your less than professional attention seeking actions, rather than become a respected member of this site with positive contributions to the forums and the providing of educational material to others.

To date, as I have not seen you provide positive dialogue or anything which furthers my education, I will continue to try very hard to avoid your further posts and threads.

Can I get an AMEN Annie?

[akflightmedic]

you made my point exactly. Because ambulance accidents are the number one killer of our people, it should warrant further study.

I would also like to note for all of you who dont believe anything until there is a scientific study: make sure you are being honest about that. Go back and read the threads about DC EMS (or any EMS) and patient deaths. Everyone was quick to judge and condemn those providers, without any scientific study. You read a news report, and made a conclusion regarding the quality of care at those providers. You had no statistics to back up your opinion.

No I did not make your point. You are continuing to make a statement that has no basis on fact.

That is sheer ignorance. Well it was until you were informed. After being informed and continuing to make the same statement means you have crossed from ignorance into stupidity.

You will not use my responses to promote your flawed agenda.

[ERDoc]

Hmmmmm...I sense...

The Chewbaca Defense

[itku2er]

Hmmmmm...I sense...

The Chewbaca Defense

That was too funny

[WolfmanHarris]

you made my point exactly. Because ambulance accidents are the number one killer of our people, it should warrant further study.

So are the studies listed by BEorP unreliable or do we need more of them? How many studies are needed? Do you believe that the link you posted represents a meaningful addition to the collective knowledge and will result in reduced accidents? How will a tally of accidents result in their prevention?

I would also like to note for all of you who dont believe anything until there is a scientific study: make sure you are being honest about that.

Yep I'm being honest. I honestly believe that in order for any discussion on an issue to be generalized to the entire industry requires basis in fact. For those facts to be reliable, they need to be gathered and analyzed scientifically. Swapping ideas about something doesn't require this, but claims that are meant to apply beyond one's own experience do. So while I can say that "in my community we've noticed a problem with elderly falls and are considering a fall arrest program. Does anyone have any ideas?" without scientific basis, I can't say "Elderly falls are killing a huge number of patients. We as an industry must address this now." and have it be truly meaningful without facts to back it up. The most reliable facts are those which are based on scientific data and are peer-reviewed.

Go back and read the threads about DC EMS (or any EMS) and patient deaths. Everyone was quick to judge and condemn those providers, without any scientific study. You read a news report, and made a conclusion regarding the quality of care at those providers. You had no statistics to back up your opinion.

Don't need statistics on an individual provider. We're talking case study vs generalization. Now being quick to judge would be a problem were we in a position to actually judge them or have an influence on the outcome. But throughout you see discussion based on what was presented and if that presentation is true than what we think of it.

[crotchitymedic1986]

http://www.emsedsem.org/Prior%20Articles/E...from%20JEMS.pdf

[crotchitymedic1986]

You make a good point, we may not need another study; WE NEED ACTION.

[EMTsheri]

Ya know.... ((pausing))

I was reading the posted replies and what came to mind after reading one after the other was "DANG! Why are these people slamming Crotchity just for voicing his opinion. He really is allowed to voice his 'opinion'. I don't remember seeing him write "And this is FACT..." His thread is not under the educational area. All of the slams just seemed, from an outsiders point of view, just plain mean. There is no sense in it. At least his replies to each of you were well versed and respectful. Maybe some of you know him on a personal level or are just prone to slinging mud, but from someone that probably doesn't know any of you it appears that some of you have a very hateful spirit. Please let people have their opinions.

If you're here to teach then please teach with a kind mindset... Others will be much more willing to learn from you and will retain what you have shared because they will have appreciated HOW they were taught.

This is my opinion...

[spenac]

Ya know.... ((pausing))

I was reading the posted replies and what came to mind after reading one after the other was "DANG! Why are these people slamming Crotchity just for voicing his opinion. He really is allowed to voice his 'opinion'. I don't remember seeing him write "And this is FACT..." His thread is not under the educational area. All of the slams just seemed, from an outsiders point of view, just plain mean. There is no sense in it. At least his replies to each of you were well versed and respectful. Maybe some of you know him on a personal level or are just prone to slinging mud, but from someone that probably doesn't know any of you it appears that some of you have a very hateful spirit. Please let people have their opinions.

If you're here to teach then please teach with a kind mindset... Others will be much more willing to learn from you and will retain what you have shared because they will have appreciated HOW they were taught.

This is my opinion...

Sorry your opinion is wrong.

There is much more than what appears with the crotch. He is like a snake, you cut his head off and he still bites. Many of his discussions actually could have real value if he would not bait everyone into his way or the highway.