EMTs are now authorized to obtain blood samples on DWI stops

[Asysin2leads]

Agreed. But in this case, is it possible that we’ve breached the pt’s trust in advance simply by giving the appearance that we are untrustworthy? And if we do so, how do we regain it later?

you could make the same argument for reporting victims of child abuse. why would a parent seek medical attention for their kids if theyre the ones that inflicted the harm and they knew we had a legal obligation to rat em out?

As for collecting evidence? your PCR is a collection of evidence. Us taking a blood sample isnt violating the publics trust. theyve already been caught. if we picked up a drunk/high patient and law enforcement wasnt already involved and then we called the cops to rat the guy out, that would be violating trust. same thing for kicking parents out of the truck when i talk to kids about sensitive subjects. if i dime off the kid to mom, i just volated their trust.

Ummmm.... yes, you did violate their trust by "diming them off" to their parents. So... you probably... shouldn't be doing that. Perhaps its time to do some review of your job functions. I don't think I've ever had the need to tell a child that I would keep something secret and then go and tell it directly to their parents.I generally... okay, make that always... put it in my report and then pass it off to the ER staff. Now I'm really confused. What exactly it is you do?

[Just Plain Ruff]

I think that the minute that you are called out to a suspected drunk driver and you make contact then haven't you become the caregiver for the driver? You are getting ready to do a procedure that only a physician can order you to do, draw blood, even if it is in your protocol.

As a matter of fact, will you have protocols that will address this issue? Will you have protocols that cover your butt with your medical director's butt as a umbrella when you cannot get the blood? What if you cause a cellulitis and the patient requires IV antibiotics or god forbid there is a resultant staph or MRSA exposure and illness when you didn't wash your hands after the last nursing home patient you took care of, put on your gloves and you exposed the driver to the infectious agents on your gloves or whatever.

What happens if the patient passes out from the blood draw and he hits his head on the officers car door or whatever?

These are all real world situations that could happen, some more often than others but what kind of protection will your ambulance service and the jurisdiction you are under provide you? I'm suspecting that your ass will be out in the wind yelling, "Who's going to protect me"

So aside from the ethical and medical aspects, let's discuss the legal ramifications of doing this. Just because there's a law allowing us to do it doesn't mean it's a good idea for us to actually do it.

[p3medic]

Put driver in police car, drive to hospital, have hospital staff draw blood and submit to their CLIA certified lab. No need for EMS. Cops love to use EMS to make things go away. EMS has much better things to do than to be involved in this. Hell, put the cops through a phlebotomy course and let them do it themeselves.

[CTXMEDIC]

You are getting ready to do a procedure that only a physician can order you to do, draw blood, even if it is in your protocol.

Uh, where do YOU work bro?

[CTXMEDIC]

I think that the minute that you are called out to a suspected drunk driver and you make contact then haven't you become the caregiver for the driver? You are getting ready to do a procedure that only a physician can order you to do, draw blood, even if it is in your protocol.

As a matter of fact, will you have protocols that will address this issue? Will you have protocols that cover your butt with your medical director's butt as a umbrella when you cannot get the blood? What if you cause a cellulitis and the patient requires IV antibiotics or god forbid there is a resultant staph or MRSA exposure and illness when you didn't wash your hands after the last nursing home patient you took care of, put on your gloves and you exposed the driver to the infectious agents on your gloves or whatever.

What happens if the patient passes out from the blood draw and he hits his head on the officers car door or whatever?

These are all real world situations that could happen, some more often than others but what kind of protection will your ambulance service and the jurisdiction you are under provide you? I'm suspecting that your ass will be out in the wind yelling, "Who's going to protect me"

So aside from the ethical and medical aspects, let's discuss the legal ramifications of doing this. Just because there's a law allowing us to do it doesn't mean it's a good idea for us to actually do it.

and, and, and maybe hell will freeze over and a giant alien controlled asteroid will hit the icecube we once knew as earth, shattering it into a bazillion shards of earth/ice and sending those shards into other planets causing universal mayhem and destruction. :roll:

BTW, i do agree with your very last sentance. i never said i WANTED to do this, i think it would be a pain in the ass. i find it funny that all those against it so far dont even work in texas...per the profiles anyway.

[spenac]

and, and, and maybe hell will freeze over and a giant alien controlled asteroid will hit the icecube we once knew as earth, shattering it into a bazillion shards of earth/ice and sending those shards into other planets causing universal mayhem and destruction. :roll:

BTW, i do agree with your very last sentance. i never said i WANTED to do this, i think it would be a pain in the ass. i find it funny that all those against it so far dont even work in texas...per the profiles anyway.

I am from Texas. Actually I am against them waking me up to just go draw blood. If we are on wreck scene and people are refusing then maybe but again medical directors will have to put a provision into protocols for us to do this. Just like when they made epi a requirement for all ambulances medical directors had to draw up a protocol if they did not already have one.

[akflightmedic]

i find it funny that all those against it so far dont even work in texas...per the profiles anyway.

Cause this is how it all starts.

Precedent is set, other states take notice, try it out as well...next thing ya know, everyone is doing it, which is exactly what we want to prevent. I am rallying for your state, your cause, cause I do not want it in mine...ever.

[Richard B the EMT]

Hell, put the cops through a phlebotomy course and let them do it themeselves.

I have noted on several of the procedural shows, and I will specify "Law and Order:Special Victims Unit", where the show regulars, "Detectives", draw blood for DNA, and other testing to either eliminate the person as a suspect, or use as evidence against that person, during the course of the investigation.

This, seeing the above statement quoted, brings the question, do any LEO agencies train their Detectives, or even uniformed personnel, to the level of phlebotomy technician for purposes of evidence gathering, to the best of the collective knowledge of the rest of us here in EMT City?

[ccmedoc]

They tried it here..

But it didn't work so well..AS you can see.

Here too..web page

Of course Arizona has no state regulations for licensing Phlebotomists either..AFAIK :shock:

[Just Plain Ruff]

and, and, and maybe hell will freeze over and a giant alien controlled asteroid will hit the icecube we once knew as earth, shattering it into a bazillion shards of earth/ice and sending those shards into other planets causing universal mayhem and destruction. :roll:

BTW, i do agree with your very last sentance. i never said i WANTED to do this, i think it would be a pain in the ass. i find it funny that all those against it so far dont even work in texas...per the profiles anyway.

CTX, there you go again showing your immature side and a side of you I have only just begun to see. You don't like someone's arguments and you either make light of it or you demean it. That's professional I say.

so CTX, the protocols you have don't need to be set up by a physician. drawing blood is on the physician's head so medical control either orders blood draws or your protocols say do it. That is what i mean by ordered by a physician. Everything you do has a physicians name all over it. You don't do anything in the ambulance that a physician has not already signed off on. Start a line, a physician has either ordered it or it's in your physician approved protocols. Give a medication and that is ordered by the physician be it standing orders or not.

Why is this any different. You have blood draws for the Police, we do too. But it falls under a protocol that we have that we do this. our medical director approved this protocol. I'm sorry to tell everyone here but the liberal protocols some of us work under are approved by a physician medical director.

If your protocols are not approved by a physician then I'm not sure if I want to work where you are working.

There is no need to get all snippy and sarcastic.

I have seen and I am sure you have to seen an infected IV site, an infected injection site and the like. So don't lecture me on the fact that it won't happen. It does.

We do very little to our patients in the ambulance that a physician already has not ordered or has not approved via standing orders.

I work in a service that allows liberal use of medications, procedures and I rarely have to call and request anything that I use but that doesn't mean that these are not ordered by a physician. In the end, the physician is the one who's head is on the chopping block when something I do was wrong or the protocol is not up to date because his medical license is over our service.