EMTs are now authorized to obtain blood samples on DWI stops

[AnthonyM83]

What the hell is that avatar, AK?

It's a very famous photograph...

[BushyFromOz]

Wonder how well this would stack up on "chain of custody" issues

[DwayneEMTP]

Wonder how well this would stack up on "chain of custody" issues

We did this regularly in CO Springs, but only at the jail, and I don't really see the chain of custody issue as there is no reason for the medics/EMTs to transport the blood, but simply to draw it.

At the jail they have a kit that is preprepared and sealed. The medic and two officers have to sign to the fact that it was sealed when received. There are step by step instructions for everything, initialed/signed by all present as things move along. All supplies including gloves, non alcoholic preps and a table covering are included in the kit. Nothing outside of the kit, including the pen, is used with the exception of the tape and 2x2 I used to cover the resulting wound. The suspect initials one end of the seals before they're used and then signs the other end after each vial is drawn and sealed and all is done in a holding room with audio/video recording. Then all is placed and sealed into a Chain of Custody bag like any other piece of evidence, after which I have no idea what happens to it.

If it should have been our job, I don't know, but I was told it was part of the ambulance contract for the city. I didn't mind doing it as it only took a few minutes, was done professionally, and I also was never called to court to defend my qualifications. Also, being a medical procedure, a mobile medical professional seems like an efficient and logical choice to me.

I don't really see why the same techniques couldn't be used on the hood of a police car or anyplace else recording can be accomplished. Again, I'm only commenting on the defensibility of technique and chain of custody, not whether or not it belongs in EMS...I'll have to give that a little more thought.

Dwayne

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[reaper]

Wonder how well this would stack up on "chain of custody" issues

For ours it was not a problem. LEO sat next to you and handed you everything from the kit. You handed the vial back, they bagged it and both signed it. it is that simple to keep the chain short.

[rock_shoes]

For ours it was not a problem. LEO sat next to you and handed you everything from the kit. You handed the vial back, they bagged it and both signed it. it is that simple to keep the chain short.

LEO's should be instructed to do their own blood draws if they need them. That'll keep the chain of evidence really short and avoid tying up an EMS crew.

[itku2er]

Maybe its the nurse in me but I see serious issues with the samples. Reaper since you did this in flordia maybe you can help me out here, How were the specimans transported? Were they refrigated or at least put on dry ice or something? What was the longest time it took to get a sample to a lab? Maybe I straying away from what AK is trying to do in this thread if so I apologize. I do not think that EMT's should draw labs.

[akflightmedic]

I too have drawn a few roadside labs for the highway patrol in Florida.

To answer your question, we did not tx the sample. It was a kit the officer handed to us, we used all their supplies and then handed it back when finished. What happened after that I do not know, nor do I care.

I do not think we should be doing this and I certainly do not think there should be legislation enforcing it, because that is exactly what will happen. We will be used and abused for these call outs and have no recourse as it will be covered under the law.

If an officer needs a sample, then he needs to go to the ER and collect it there. I am there to treat the patient, even if he is a drunkard who may or may not have injured or killed someone, that is not for me to intervene. I will treat him/her if needed and transport if needed. Collecting a blood sample for legal proceedings should not be placed upon us.

[firedoc5]

Who is "we", how were you a part of "we", and how or why do you think any of this should fall within our job duties as a pre hospital EMS provider?

We as in my coworkers. One of our part-time medics had her Masters in Lab Science and worked at the hosp. She said that if we were able to obtain blood ahead of treatment it would be more accurate than after all the IV's and any other treatments, especially a blood tranfusion. I know of a number of circumstances where what blood had been drawn had been "thrown out" due to a lawyer pointing it out and the obvious DUI driver was not charged.

[akflightmedic]

Interesting. First, you didn't address the last part of my posting. What do YOU think and why?

Second, I do not hold a Masters in Lab Science, so I can not say with any real sense of knowledge, only what I have learned over the years and past experiences.

How many of your patients were DUI/DWI and needed such massive infusions of saline or blood transfusions to the point it would dilute the blood alcohol level?

Out of this statistically low number, how many of these in such poor condition to start with, did you delay care on to obtain a blood sample?

Again, the odds are already overwhelmingly low.

Do these low numbers and rare situations justify us being used as "do boys" simply cause legislation (in TX) says we must?

As for those criminals that got off scott free due to the blood being thrown out, who had drawn that blood and in what situation did this occur?

If a blood sample was all they had to nail a uninjured DWI driver, then someone failed as the blood is usually obtained to further solidify the officer's impression, behavior seen on camera and/or the refusal of a breathalyzer by the driver.

Now if the driver was so injured to the point that these massive treatments diluted his content and months later after recovering and enduring a trial jury, he is to be set free on a technicality...well he may have already paid his dues for that one.

[DwayneEMTP]

I will treat him/her if needed and transport if needed. Collecting a blood sample for legal proceedings should not be placed upon us.

Yeah, I guess I see that. Also, it's not as if drawing blood is rocket science. It's my guess that if you can teach the average fireman to start an IV, then you can easily certify a cop to draw blood.

I guess I don't see why they couldn't have 'certified' special units to draw their own blood? But it does start to blur the lines between law and medicine.

Perhaps another argument against EMS for this job is putting us into the antagonistic position with a demographic of people that need to trust us before allowing treatment? (Chronic/casual drug users, alcoholics, etc) Does this put EMS back into the position of fighting over every IV because "we might be taking blood for the cops"?

Not sure...I'll have to wait for input from better minds than mine...

Dwayne