Another Ethical Question

[crotchitymedic1986]

You respond to a superbowl party for a person "unconscious". As you enter the residence you note all kinds of illegal drugs being used openly, everyone is very high, they tell you the patient is in the back bedroom. You enter to find CPR being performed on a young female who still has the tourniquet and Heroin syringe attached to her AC. THe person doing CPR is just as high as everyone else, and is doing it poorly. When you ask him to step aside, you realize it is one of your local ER docs. He has cocaine all over his upperlip, and is so high he can barely talk. So you work the code and go about your business.

P.S. the doc is not responsible for her death, he did not provide her drugs, the house is not his, he was just attending the party.

Now the ER Doc was engaged in some illegal activities, and he was not one of your patients, so you do not have any HIPPA issues. Do you report what you have seen to his employer, or let it slide ?

[mobey]

Here in Canada, the RCMP (cops) would be called due to the cardiac arrest and they would handle it.

Aside from that.... No I probably would not report them, if someone uses illegal recreational drugs on thier own time, that is thier deal. I would make sure that the police know about it, but I am not the kind of person to go behind a doc's back and report him to his employer.

I kinda wonder what the hospital administrator would say if some Paramedic/EMT walked in and said "I say Doc so and so with cocaine on his lip last night". I think I may actually be reprimanded and blackballed.

Besides.... it could be icing sugar on his lip, and he may just be drunk.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Well lets say he was smart enough to bail before the cops got there, or the cops arrested the homeowner and let everyone else go. It is one thing to be drunk, it is another to be using illegal drugs. I do not doubt that some hospital administrators would turn their cheek and let it slide, but do you have any responsibility to the patients that he may be treating while high. Then again, maybe he is never high while on-duty ? We dont know ?

[Richard B the EMT]

Theoretical: The doctor is busted, and you catch grief for NOT reporting it.

There is no clear path here, as I see it.

A now former member of the department was the patient, for a drug overdose in his own home. He worked with the senior tech on the responding ambulance. A newbie tech wrote up the report, including the admission of the illegal recreational pharmaceutical usage by the off duty member, the senior on duty tech didn't "clean up" the call report to "protect" the off duty member, and everyone ended up in trouble.

I was not on the crew, or that call, but had, and have, worked with all involved. I had no prior knowledge the now former member was using.

[crotchitymedic1986]

Well, lets go that direction then, change it from ER doc, to one of your own off-duty Paramedics, does that change your response ? And wouldnt, "cleaning" the report up be falsification of documents ?

[vs-eh?]

It is one thing to be drunk, it is another to be using illegal drugs.

Is it?

Listen, I'm no advocate for legalizing marijuana, cocaine or anything else, but seriously... What is honestly the ratio of calls that directly/indirectly involving alcohol abuse (either acute or chronic) compared to all other "illegal drugs". I assure you the alcohol has a far more adverse effect (from a 911 standpoint) than any other "illegal drug". It also has nothing to do with availability of said substance, as many "illegal" drugs are readily available. It's simply an antiquated cultural/governmental issue. Imagine if marijuana was legalized and taxed like tobaccoalcohol? There is no reason why it shouldn't be.

I would love to see the stats from a place like Amsterdam, where certain North American "illegal drugs" are legal, and see what the ratio of EMS calls/hospital admittances are.

So a person can get hammered every night and/or every day off and that's cool if you were to do a call with them involved, but with cocaine or marijuana it's suddenly a huge issue? Fucking bullshit.

I hate posts like this, there is no issue. The issue enters when substance abuse starts interfering with a person's job.

[crotchitymedic1986]

I totally agree with you regarding the legalization of drugs, as long as you are willing to pay your own healthcare costs, and not put it on everyone else. But are you saying you would feel safe having a known heroin abuser driving your ambulance daily. Like it or not, it is against the law to use these substances currently, and once you break one law, how hard is it to break another ?

[mobey]

I am the same a vs-eh, I do not put alot of weight on the whole illegal drug thang. I know a few people who do drugs socially, yup you can just do coke once a month... and people do!

Drugs are not as taboo as they used to be, alcohol is quickly losing higherarchy to drugs in society today and I am not one to "rat-out" everyone who uses them (I don't go to the supervisor everytime an employee gets drunk off duty).

I would not be the least bit shy about reporting anyone that was working under the influence of any substance however, whether it be alcohol or drugs.

I am not a fan of drug use..... in fact I only drink alcohol a few times a year and never use drugs.

Well, lets go that direction then, change it from ER doc, to one of your own off-duty Paramedics.....?

This is the problem with your posts crotch..... everytime you don't get what you want out of a debate you change the topic.

This could have been a good thread

Give up your need to be right already :evil:

[vs-eh?]

Pay thier own health care costs as opposed to those who drink or smoke? There is no difference. It's the same as those who eat like shit, don't excercise, etc...

Feel safe for a heroin abuser, as opposed to an alcohol abuser? A script drug abuser? Again, looking at the big picture, there is no difference. Any form of substance abuse has the ability to interfere with day to day life.

Do you report people who say they are tired because they had a rough night the night before? Do you question on what substance's they may have ingested, take a tally, and then tell them to go home? Report them to a supervisor? If they drank X beers is it ok, but smoked one joint its not?

I'm sure you are an angel with all things crotchity... Unless you have SOLID reason to believe that a person is at work and directly under a mind altering/decision making/clear thinking substance, then you have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[mobey]

But are you saying you would feel safe having a known heroin abuser driving your ambulance daily?

I don't like people driving who have been drinking heavily till 10hrs before thier shift started either..... but them the rules!

Is there a difference between being drunk the day before you work, and being high the day before you work? I don't think so...