Fire Deptartment defends using trucks for medical calls

[CTXMEDIC]

That's too simple. Think of all the consultants and firemonkeys that would be out of work if we did that.

And thats exactely what its about. Money. The fire kids have to prove their worth. if the public ever saw one of our firestations and what goes on during 'non-buisness hours', funding would dry up in a heartbeat. Paying some kid 20 bucks an hour to play xbox and watch movies in a lazyboy after 3 huge months of a fire academy education would piss off Joe Taxpayer to no end.

And for those of you that want to outsource OUR job to the cops or firekids really need to rethink what youre doing. its this 'everybody can do it' mentality, among other things, that keep our wages in the toilet. we have medics that spend 2 years in a medic school that get paid half of what some 18 yr old kid makes after 3 months of a fire academy and EMT class.

if we keep outsourcing out duties and let vollies swamp our profession, i dont want to hear any whining when you lose your jobs or take pay cuts.

For those of you that dont think this can happen......

http://sunnyvale.ca.gov/Departments/Public...g-education.htm

Introduction: Within eighteen months of hire, all Public Safety Officers receive instruction and practical experience in law enforcement and fire fighting techniques. Through our mentor program, we provide individual help and guidance to officers in training throughout the program.

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Fire Academy Training: Sunnyvale sends recruits to the Santa Clara County Joint Fire Academy or we hold our own Academy. Training begins with a ten-week class for new officers. Trainees receive classroom and drill instructions in fire prevention and fire suppression techniques.

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AD/PO Certification: All Public Safety Officers are certified as fire engineers and can drive and pump all fire apparatus. The 80-hour course involves driving fire apparatus, learning fire hydraulic operations, and qualifying for a class B Driver's License.

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Certification as EMT-1: All officers are fully trained as EMTs and certified in the field use of the Automated External Defibrillator. The 136-hour course is comprised of lecture and "hands-on" training, preparing the trainee to effectively manage medical emergencies as an Emergency Medical Technician - Basic.

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Police Academy Training: New officers are assigned to the Alameda County Sheriff's Office Academy (Recruit Training Center) for their initial training. Under guidelines set forth by the State Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training (P.O.S.T.), new hires undergo rigorous training for a period of approximately 27 weeks.

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Police Field Training: After successfully completing the police academy, trainees become sworn officers. Their first assignment is to work with a field training officer on patrol duty. Before leaving the 10-level field training program, lasting nearly 14 weeks, new officers must demonstrate the capability and skills necessary to function safely and effectively on solo patrol.

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Assignment to Active Duty: After successful completion of the police academy, fire academy, and police field training program, trainees become a fully functional and trained solo Public Safety Officer II and begin an 18 month probationary period.

All officers in the Public Safety Department spend portions of the remainder of their probationary period both on solo patrol in a police vehicle and as a firefighter assigned to a fire station. Officers then bid for assignments, by seniority, to either police or fire duty according to the annual department schedule.

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In-Service Training: We believe that continuous review of skills and retraining in new techniques are essential for the personal development of our officers and the effective delivery of police and fire services. To this end, we conduct extensive in-service training programs for both police and fire throughout the year. While California State law mandates all peace officers must receive 40 hours of advanced officer training every two years, Sunnyvale provides 96 hours per year for ongoing in-service training. Additionally, officers are scheduled to receive specialized training periodically to enhance career growth.

[CBEMT]

Sound like a bad idea sending the fire engine to the EMS call?

The reason Boston EMS is one of the best in the country is because THEY provide the ALS care, with carefully selected and exceptionally trained paramedics. Not a firefighter patch factory graduate witha license to kill.

Boston Fire trucks are sent on Priority 1 calls for one reason- to put an AED and CPR-trained hands onscene in case the patient codes before EMS arrival, or is a code already.

[paramedicmike]

Perhaps it's your grandfather having the CHF exaccerbation, or whatever breathing problem we're referring to. The ambulance has a 12-15 minute response time, and the fire piece(engine, ladder, whatever) has a 2-3 minute response time. Sounds good.

Now lets say the Engine has a firefighter/paramedic in the jump seat, and a monitor/drug box/cpap/ all that nice ALS stuff on board.

Sound like a bad idea sending the fire engine to the EMS call?

Yes, it does. That "ALS provider" on the engine is stagnating as an "EMS provider". I would much rather have someone arrive who provides patient care on a daily basis, who can perform a complete assessment, who can quickly identify what needs to be done, who is proficient and efficient with his/her equipment due to repeated and daily use, who won't fumble with equipment or assessment or treatment interventions because of gained proficiency/efficiency than someone who may, or may not, have checked the equipment on the engine that morning because he'd rather fight fire than provide patient care.

All that "nice ALS stuff on board" isn't going to do anyone any good if the "firefighter/paramedic" can't work the equipment because he's rusty.

I'm saying an Engine, especially, with EMS trained personell...

Trained? I don't want anyone who's trained. I want an *educated* EMS provider. There is a difference.

You never know how many hands you need. I don't know about you but I only have two.

So why not, on every call, dispatch the police because it might be violent? Why not dispatch the power/gas company(ies) because there may be a power/gas problem? Why not dispatch the Red Cross because it might be an MCI? After all, you never know how many hands you need, right?

Further, by continuing to argue that point, you insult the intelligence of every EMS provider out there. Do you honestly not think we are capable of identifying when we need additional resources? Do you honestly not think we are capable of calling for those additional resources? What a condescending, ignorant and arrogant attitude to take when you think you know automatically know more than EMS providers simply because you work for the FD.

-be safe

[CTXMEDIC]

Like i said, its all about the money. If the fire kids didnt go to ems calls you'd have 15 year old engines with 10 miles on the odometer.

[Arizonaffcep]

Ok, every call that comes in as obese gets a dual response. In that case, let's put aeromedical assets on standby every time there's a freeway accident during rush hour.

Na...probably just a fender-bender with low speed involvment!

[crotchitymedic1986]

As much as I agree with alot of what is being said, you cant lump all "hose-monkeys" into the "unprofessional / uneducated" label. Many good medics chose the Fire Dept for job security that is almost non-existent in an Independent EMS agency. I can not fault someone for putting their family first, and opting for a better retirement plan from their years of work.

I think before we go trying to fix the Fire Department, we might want to fix EMS first -- ie... medics who ride in glass ambulances, shouldnt throw stones.

[rccmedic39]

Anyone think maybe the problem lies with EMS being a largely privatized industry? It seems to me that fire can take EMS, esp. in areas like SoCal, because they can claim a desire for better patient care(not that that's true) while saying that private companies are all about the dollar. A lot of these companies(not all) will hire just enough medics and EMT's to meet the minimum standards in their contracts in order to maximize profits. While I'm not for fire-based EMS, until there is a larger oversight and representation(not the NREMT) like police and fire for us, it is just going to keep going that direction. As crotchity says, many medics who want to stay in the business have to go fire to make a livable wage and benefits for themselves and their families.

[crotchitymedic1986]

I think alot of our problems stem from not having a national body that provides oversight. Look at how JCAHO has improved many hospitals, and how the fire department has to follow the standards of its national body and ISO. When you have a national standard of what constitutes minimal "EMS standards for any agency, you will see improvement. Until then, it is free-range EMS.

[Christopher.Collins]

Ok so I do defend fire departments as BLS first responders. I have been a part of that category for nearly 5 years or so. As Ive said many times I do like having extra hands on a call (AS NEEDED) that "know" patient care. And I also defend FDs with ambulances as well. My issue is this... you do not need a battalion chief, ladder truck and/or engine and ambulance responding from one station or multiple for a "routine" diff breather or fall... thats rediculous. Fortunatley any station I have ever been a member of rolls its light rescue (if R1) or ONLY its ambulance if applicable. Is there an MVA? By all means roll the whole station safley if you please, even if its a fender bender on the highway cuz I could use the barricade. But there is nothing that your going to have on your truck (aside from a stokes basket or BIG scene lights) that I dont already have in my ambulance.

When I was about 8 or 9 my best friends father commited suicide... I was outside chillin in the paramedics car cuz she was tottally cool like that. I was young and naieve but growing up in a fire/ems family knew who did what... what I could never figure out even at that age was why the hell they sent a tiller ladder truck for a man who hung him self from an average homes ceiling height. I coulda cut the bastard down myself and I was a child.

[HellsBells]

Wow a fire vs EMS debate that is rational, with no personal attacks (so far). I'm impressed.

EMS is not staffed to be able to provide the same response time as fire because I'm assuming Boston ambulances(along with the rest of the nation's) are held up at the hospital waiting for a bed for their stubbed toe patient or other nonsense BLS cab-ride to the patients PCP(The ER MD). I can see the argument for police trained as EMS providers, but I don't ever see that happening except for a few very small exceptions.

I think the real solution here is to have a Paramedic chase car at the fire station. There are no hospital waits, he simply hands off to the incoming ambulance crew, he is there as an extra set of hands, and is not tying up an expensive ladder truck. Of course there will be some extra expense to house the chase car at a fire hall, but it will be small compared to the reduced wear and tear on the fire engine.