Arming EMT's

[Dustdevil]

Arming a medic doesn't make him a public safety officer any more than arming 7-11 clerks makes them public safety officers. It is not the agency or the job that is arming them. It is the medic arming himself. The agency only permits it.

[AnthonyM83]

Of course a permissive policy also opens itself up a to great liability, even if the policy only lists it as a self-defense tool. You have to make sure they have proper training (physical, legal, scenario-wise, etc). So many thing retard personnel can get in trouble with a gun...likely more trouble having one than not having one..

[Dustdevil]

Of course a permissive policy also opens itself up a to great liability, even if the policy only lists it as a self-defense tool. You have to make sure they have proper training (physical, legal, scenario-wise, etc).

Actually, the opposite is true. To have no policy at all is the most legally safe policy. Don't ask, don't tell, as it were. That way, you as an employer did not "allow" it. The law of your state -- who issued the permit -- allowed it. Can't sue the state. Therefore, the medic is solely responsible for his actions.

[AnthonyM83]

I think we're saying the same thing?

[Dustdevil]

I think we're saying the same thing?

Okay, i was reading the first two sentences together and mistaking your point.

I'm curious how many agencies have a policy for or against weapons, either way. Either way, the agency leaves itself open to liability. Ignorance is bliss.

[mrmeaner]

Okay Dust, you put EMS back 25 years to being Public Safety Officers again and not medical professionals. EMS can't find a decent path to define itself in the medical field, it might as well just stay with a bunch of certs including "firearms".

Until EMT's stop responding to calls in tennis shoes, jean shorts and an EMS shirt, I think the "medical professional" issue is not only a firearm policy away. An undereducated EMT of any level is far more dangerous than even the biggest whacker with a sidearm.

If nurses, doctors, and respiratory therapists were expected to go into innercity homes and ghettos, I find it hard to believe they would be so adimantly against firearms. Of course, that would never happen...

If as a medic I had to be lumped with either fire or law enforcement, I'd go with law enforcement. Their education and training seems to be closer than what fire is and more structured and demanding.

Also, if someone were hiring an EMT knowing that they would be carrying a firearm, they would be far, far less likely to skim an application to get a warm body.

[VentMedic]

If nurses, doctors, and respiratory therapists were expected to go into innercity homes and ghettos, I find it hard to believe they would be so adimantly against firearms. Of course, that would never happen...

It's called homecare. Nurses and RTs do spend a great deal of time going into neighhoods where EMT(P)s only go with PD escort. I don't like to do homecare for that reason. I am much safer working as a Paramedic where I can call for backup and get it without any questions asked. Yet, I have not felt the need to carry a gun into a house through whatever mess to see a baby with a trach regardless of how heavily armed the uncles and their friends were. I posed no threat to them and went in as a healthcare provider or MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL. I was not in my FD uniform nor did I look like a cop by carrying a gun.

Even during the riots, I was not armed with a gun. I let the LEOs and National Guard do their thing while I focused on caring for the injured. If you have ever worked in an area where you counted bullet holes in your truck as part of your morning inspection, you can compare EMS battle stories with me.

Edit:

However, what weapons I have in my own home and when off duty is my own business and I am not respresenting the company I work for or the profession.

[mrmeaner]

If you have ever worked in an area where you counted bullet holes in your truck as part of your morning inspection, you can compare EMS battle stories with me.

Alright, apparently either you missed my point, or I failed to make it. I'm wasn't interested in trading stories about hiking accross the great lakes. The point is people of any profession are going to want to protect themselves, not just EMTs or paramedics. Opinions of how to accomplish that will vary, but I believe that at least a few docs, nurses, and RTs would feel safer if they carried protection (republicans are everywhere). I don't expect to see doctors, nurses, or RT's on inner city 911 services for many reasons, but not because of a deficit on thier part.

Hopefully this will clarify.

[VentMedic]

[

Alright, apparently either you missed my point, or I failed to make it. I'm wasn't interested in trading stories about hiking accross the great lakes. The point is people of any profession are going to want to protect themselves, not just EMTs or paramedics. Opinions of how to accomplish that will vary, but I believe that at least a few docs, nurses, and RTs would feel safer if they carried protection (republicans are everywhere). I don't expect to see doctors, nurses, or RT's on inner city 911 services for many reasons, but not because of a deficit on thier part.

Hopefully this will clarify.

I already stated that there are many medical professionals that do go where EMS goes but do not want to be seen as a threat or the aggressor by carrying a gun into someone's house on a medical call. Usually they are alone when they go on these calls. I also told you about doctors and other medical professionals working in other countries but want the people they will serve to know they come to them as medical professionals and not as aggressors carrying guns as the militia in their country. They too know the risks but understand avoidance of a scene that makes them uncomfortable until help arrives might be the best defense rather than shooting their way in or out of a scene. EMS is not all that different except that some prefer not identify themselves as healthcare providers or medical professionals.

I don't get what you are talking about with the hiking thing. I meant it is possible to survive working all situations on a 911 ambulance and still live to talk about it. You do have the option to call for PD. Many dispatchers will automatically call PD for some parts of the city to escort the ambulance. All a gun is going to do is not only make someone look like the aggressor with both the patient and the community but also give some a false sense of security by thinking "we're armed and ready". Thus, some may put themselves into situations they shouldn't be in without PD. I can also see those that only have the training of a concealed weapons permit, as some suggest is adequate, having their weapon used against them or spending the rest of their life in prison.

You might also check the statistics on the number of medical professionals that are assaulted within the walls of the hospital. Unfortunately, some of the assaults in the ED come from patients who have been thoroughly agitated by EMS prior to arrival.

We had a thread on another forum about being mistaken for a LEO. Many posted that they have been and didn't correct the other person. They actually enjoyed being mistaken for a LEO and the authority it seemed to bring them. Imagine how some would probably act by having a gun but for the reason of completing the "uniform" and not for self defense.

Wearing a gun can definitely change one's own perception of themselves. If you want to be viewed as a cop, you will have to take the same risks from the community as a cop and be expected to answer for you actions as a cop. There are alot more LEOs killed than EMT(P)s because some criminals feel threatened by them and make them a target. Now PD will have to worry about the EMT(P)s doing something stupid like showing their weapon at a scene and putting everyone at risk including them.

Those that have worked inner cities without always having PD around either know when and how to approach a scene or presented themselves as medical professionals.

[mrmeaner]

I already stated that there are many medical professionals that do go where EMS goes but do not want to be seen as a threat or the aggressor by carrying a gun into someone's house on a medical call. Usually they are alone when they go on these calls.

Are you referring to home health calls or 911 calls? When I said 911 calls that’s what I was referring to. I understand that home health nurses go to residences. So do the mailman, the gas company, electric company, the ice cream truck, Jehovah’s witnesses and census workers. But they typically don’t respond to domestic disturbance calls, MVA’s, shootings, stabbings or codes. Neither do nurses, docs or RT’s.

I also told you about doctors and other medical professionals working in other countries but want the people they will serve to know they come to them as medical professionals and not as aggressors carrying guns as the militia in their country.

I must have missed where you told me about this. Regardless, the comparison to this issue is apples and oranges.

rather than shooting their way in or out of a scene.

Shooting their way into a scene?!? INTO??? Do you seriously think that’s what will happen? Your apparent dim view of EMS is starting to explain your position.

EMS is not all that different except that some prefer not identify themselves as healthcare providers or medical professionals.

So are you saying that they are impersonating officers or is this about the inappropriate attire, which I would agree with?

I don't get what you are talking about with the hiking thing.

It’s a reference to walking on water. If “you counted bullet holes in your truck as part of your morning inspection”, then your system was an epic failure, you were working in a warzone, or you’re exaggerating, alot.

I meant it is possible to survive working all situations on a 911 ambulance and still live to talk about it.

Shouldn’t it be expected that you would live to talk about it?

Many dispatchers will automatically call PD for some parts of the city to escort the ambulance.

Assuming that it came in as a potentially dangers call, then yes, most would.

All a gun is going to do is not only make someone look like the aggressor with both the patient and the community but also give some a false sense of security by thinking "we're armed and ready". Thus' date=' some may put themselves into situations they shouldn't be in without PD.[/quote']

You look like an aggressor if you act like an aggressor. If you think you are ready for anything because you have a gun, then you are a moron. Don’t hire morons.