Arming EMT's

[VentMedic]

mrmeaner,

It seems you just have very limited experience with any other medical situations besides your own ambulance. That also goes for your understanding of hospital EDs and other medical professionals.

No we do not restrain a patient to a chair in the triage area for a nurse to screen. Have you never been to a city ED?

While it is tragic to have any loss of life on the job, we have had many more EMT(P)s killed this year by MVCs than firearms. Yet, few get upset about the lax driver training in the industry or look the other way when a co-worker has a substance abuse problem that is still allowed to drive.

As far as the bullet holes in a truck, I already gave you the info. No my company was not a failure because we all managed to go home alive after the riots. You seem to have led a very sheltered life yet choose to talk big on an anonymous forum about things you may know very little about.

Educate yourself to ways of preventing a confrontation with a patient and ensuring scene safety. Don't play the macho gun carrying EMT who must solve the problem all by himself. Let those in law enforcement do their job without a concealed weapon class graduate playing cop.

BTW, I do not hire morons. Those I hire know they DO NOT carry any guns on the helicopter or fixed wing. Nor will we do any CCT or airport transfer with a gun toting EMT(P) even if and especially if it is concealed.

[mrmeaner]

It seems you just have very limited experience with any other medical situations besides your own ambulance. That also goes for your understanding of hospital EDs and other medical professionals.

Nope, just work for hospital based EMS in several communities and Medical transport in a large city. Poor sheltered me.

No we do not restrain a patient to a chair in the triage area for a nurse to screen.

Oh, right. The people sitting in the waiting rooms just love the nurses. I'm surprised they don't get many Christmas cards.

Why are patients brought to the ED by EMS patient restrained? Because they were violent or they need to be immobilized. How is this the EMT's fault?

While it is tragic to have any loss of life on the job, we have had many more EMT(P)s killed this year by MVCs than firearms. Yet, few get upset about the lax driver training in the industry or look the other way when a co-worker has a substance abuse problem that is still allowed to drive.

Well then, it's a shame that the state's EMS association has published a stance promoting the requirement of standardized training and the legislature will be making driver training a requirement for any EMS provider (which all services I work for have proactively completed) within the next year or so. We'll just have to tell them that apparently we don't care.

I don't know where the hell you work, but if you have a co-worker with a substance abuse problem and you don't say anything, you're just as guilty as the co-worker. If the employer does nothing then they need to be reported. Is this honestly a problem where you are?

As far as the bullet holes in a truck, I already gave you the info. No my company was not a failure because we all managed to go home alive after the riots. You seem to have led a very sheltered life yet choose to talk big on an anonymous forum about things you may know very little about.

Really, not a failure? Then why were you exposed to shootings so often that counting bullet holes in you rig was a daily part of your inspection? Just because it was the best you had doesn't mean it wasn't a failure.

Educate yourself to ways of preventing a confrontation with a patient and ensuring scene safety. Don't play the macho gun carrying EMT who must solve the problem all by himself. Let those in law enforcement do their job without a concealed weapon class graduate playing cop.

Why do you keep going to the point of only having consealed carry as a requirement? I have said specifically that it is not enough. Let me say it again: FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN, A CONCEALED CARRY CLASS IS NOT ENOUGH TRAINING TO ALLOW EMTS AND PARAMEDICS TO CARRY FIREARMS. Besides, why can't you be educated in defence tactics, ensuring safety and the appropriate use of a firearm?

BTW, I do not hire morons. Those I hire know they DO NOT carry any guns on the helicopter or fixed wing. Nor will we do any CCT or airport transfer with a gun toting EMT(P) even if and especially if it is concealed.

Right, because that's what I was suggesting, firearms on aircraft. :roll: Nevermind, I guess it's just easier to imply someone is ignorant and misquote them than to defend a point.

[VentMedic]

Really, not a failure? Then why were you exposed to shootings so often that counting bullet holes in you rig was a daily part of your inspection? Just because it was the best you had doesn't mean it wasn't a failure.

Do you understand anything about riots?

Do you even know what you are arguing about?

Let me try to explain it to you simply. It was suggested the EMT(P)s could just carry guns on ambulances without their employer's knowledge since a conceal weapon's permit makes it "legal" according to a few.

[

Oh, right. The people sitting in the waiting rooms just love the nurses. I'm surprised they don't get many Christmas cards.

Why are patients brought to the ED by EMS patient restrained? Because they were violent or they need to be immobilized. How is this the EMT's fault?

I thought you said you knew something about working in a city ED. Let me try to explain this to you simply.

A patient might come in restrained by PD or EMS. They will NOT go to the triage area near the waiting room but will be placed in an area where they can be observed and continue to be restrained safely.

Occasionally a patient will be extremely agitated by whatever happened from the time at the scene and during transport whether it be from an exchange between EMS or PD.

Yes, occasionally the ED does get Christmas cards from a patient. But, it is usually not a patient we restrained.

Did I explain this clear enough for you?

Right, because that's what I was suggesting, firearms on aircraft.

You kept making remarks about me hiring morons and I am informing you that is not the case. I was referring to threads on another forum and not the people I hire. You also insist on insulting a company that I used to work for during a very volatile time in history. If you have no experience with street violence and riots, you can not criticize the job we were doing at that time. You seem hell bent on insulting all medical professionals that don't hold the same values as you even though this thread is about EMS providers. You started the remarks about RNs, RTs and MDs not knowing anything about violence not I but I will defend any and all healthcare professionals that do deal with combative patients regardless of the place. You have a very stereotyped attitude about nurses. Those that do work in the ED must put up with these combative patients for several hours and maybe have several patients like this to oversee at the same time. You can also have the luxury of a LEO escort and can dump the patient off after as little as 15 minutes.

[mrmeaner]

It was suggested the EMT(P)s could just carry guns on ambulances without their employer's knowledge since a conceal weapon's permit makes it "legal" according to a few.

That's not my opinion. Why are you arguing that to me?

I thought you said you knew something about working in a city ED. Let me try to explain this to you simply.

A patient might come in restrained by PD or EMS. They will NOT go to the triage area near the waiting room but will be placed in an area where they can be observed and continue to be restrained safely.

Occasionally a patient will be extremely agitated by whatever happened from the time at the scene and during transport whether it be from an exchange between EMS or PD.

Yes, occasionally the ED does get Christmas cards from a patient. But, it is usually not a patient we restrained.

Did I explain this clear enough for you?

Restrained patients are not the only ones who get agitated enough to eventually become violent in the ED. One of the VA hospitals I go to is a great example of pissed off patients. They usually end up waiting for several hours in the waiting room. We transported a patient from a VA ER to another local hospital because he had chest pain and had been waiting several hours and had not yet been seen. One of the triage nurses is known for making people wait for no apparent reason. When a patient finally does get upset enough to become violent, they call the PD and have them held until they can be transferred to another VA because now they are considered a psych patient and, "Unfortunately, our psych department is not taking admissions." That is intentional. It has been reported. It goes nowhere. They just call another service for transports.

You said, "Unfortunately, some of the assaults in the ED come from patients who have been thoroughly agitated by EMS prior to arrival." As I said before, if it is intentional, it needs to be reported. If it is not intentional and it is justified, than it is just unfortunate.

You kept making remarks about me hiring morons and I am informing you that is not the case.

Wrong. You inferred I was talking about your employees. I said don't hire morons. No morons = Less problems. Show me anywhere that I stated that you hired morons.

I was referring to threads on another forum and not the people I hire.

So was I.

You also insist on insulting a company that I used to work for during a very volatile time in history.

I said it was a failure. Saying you failed does not necessarily mean you suck. Do you think things would be handled in the same way now? There were a lot of failures in the way things were handled. I understand why they failed. From what my family tells me, Chicago was more like a war zone than their home during that time. The phrase “desperate times call for desperate measures” was applied. However, answer me this: Other than that during the riots, how often did your rigs get shot at?

If you have no experience with street violence and riots, you can not criticize the job we were doing at that time.

That is a ridiculous statement. So if you don't work in politics, you can't criticize the president? Must be nice to never have to face scrutiny.

You seem hell bent on insulting all medical professionals that don't hold the same values as you even though this thread is about EMS providers.

Where did I insult all medical professionals?

You started the remarks about RNs, RTs and MDs not knowing anything about violence not I but I will defend any and all healthcare professionals that do deal with combative patients regardless of the place.

Where did I say they don't know anything about violence?

You have a very stereotyped attitude about nurses.

That's a shame considering that I'm starting nursing school this fall. I wonder how I'll deal with the self-loathing? :roll:

Those that do work in the ED must put up with these combative patients for several hours and maybe have several patients like this to oversee at the same time. You can also have the luxury of a LEO escort and can dump the patient off after as little as 15 minutes.

Wrong. You see, we don't have a security department at the smaller hospitals where I work. If there is a problem with violence in any of the departments, the EMT's are expected to assist and/or restrain the patient or visitor until law enforcement arrives. Many times we are in the rooms already because the nurses have had problems in the past with the patient or they anticipate problems. So, who sits with these patients when they are admitted so the nurses can take care of other patients? WE DO.

Don't tell me I have a problem with nurses. I am related to several and my mother works with the ED in one of the hospital where I am. I understand what they deal with on a daily basis so you can drop the omnipotent attitude and have the intestinal fortitude to stop hiding behind BS statements like "You don't know how it is." Take the time to read what I'm saying and don’t just look for something to get pissed off about.

[Dustdevil]

Educate yourself to ways of preventing a confrontation with a patient and ensuring scene safety.

You imply that there is some sort of proof that the majority of EMS violence injuries and deaths are encountered on scenes where the personnel should have known an immediate threat existed, and that they should not have entered the scene to begin with. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support this accusation?

Don't play the macho gun carrying EMT who must solve the problem all by himself. Let those in law enforcement do their job without a concealed weapon class graduate playing cop.

Another misleading mischaracterisation. You make it sound like we're talking about making arrests here. We're not. We're talking about self-defence. Self-defence is not "playing cop". It is a legal right, and a natural psychological need. And if the cops were defending us, we wouldn't need to even discuss this. But they are not.

[Diazepam618]

I guess there are some parts of the country were this is some concern, as for me I work for an FD in southern cali so we get PD or SO on every call along with a type 1 engine and ambulance on every call, so I guess the tax payers spot me for my safety, haven't gotten into any real dangerous situations yet. Don't need a gun either.

[medic112]

Allowing EMTs/Medics to carry a fire arm is just asking for trouble. What will be the regulations on when you can use it? Where is the funding going to come from to provide and train their staff on how to properly use the gun?

It's my understanding that the title FDNY isn't NYFD to prevent EMS personnel from getting attacked due to it being similar to NYPD. So wont adding a gun to the mix just make people automtically think "Cop" and make it even more dangerous to the EMS personnel?

I can also see an abuse of the fire arm and people getting overly trigger happy.

The regulations should be the same as any person that is licensed to carry a conceiled weapon on there person. I know i carry a weapon on me about 75 percent of the time while OFF duty. You just need to have common sense.. I know this is a GREAT stretch for some people.

Not trying to stur up a bunch of drama and stuff. this is just my opinion.

[Dustdevil]

The regulations should be the same as any person that is licensed to carry a conceiled weapon on there person.

Exactly. The "regulations" are already written in every state law book. No need to reinvent the wheel here. We're simply talking about allowing medics the same rights of self-defence that they would have off-duty. To deny them that with corporate policy is to open the organisation to more liability than would be incurred by allowing it.

[Steve Whitehead]

I couldn’t agree with vent more. It redefines us. You can’t pick up one end of that stick without picking up the other. It’s just not our purview. The little voice in my head that says, “I wish I had a gun on me right now.” Is the same voice that tells me to back off.

I think most paramedics are more than qualified to carry a side arm and the rest could be trained, but it’s not the point. It’s not a question of whether we could, it’s a question of whether we should. And the answer is no.

Steve

www.theemtspot.com

[spenac]

I guess there are some parts of the country were this is some concern, as for me I work for an FD in southern cali so we get PD or SO on every call along with a type 1 engine and ambulance on every call, so I guess the tax payers spot me for my safety, haven't gotten into any real dangerous situations yet. Don't need a gun either.

What a waste of tax payer funds and harm to the environment. That is way to much equipment and people for the average call. No wonder cali is in such a financial crap hole.