In England They Do Fake Emergent Driving In Public!

[spenac]

What is it you are not getting about the fact that this is mentored, regulated, controlled, and required practice in some countries? Take the UK for example, this is the standard practice of emergency driver training for NHS staff - the government run healthcare system. NO LAWS ARE BEING BROKEN! The police would laugh in your face if you were to try and report it over there. It is the way the course is SUPPOSED to be taught. Not like the fast-track "but he is the chief's Son" crap I have heard of over here.

You are continually displaying your insular and blinkered viewpoint, and as a self-proclaimed "jolly volly", have little to be vocal about. At your own admission, your experience is very limited. As for inconveniencing other road users - do you think there should be a law against filming movies / TV reenactments with ambulances and firetrucks using lights and sirens? I see it a lot in Manhattan. Would you report some "extra" to the police for driving the vehicle?

Your argument is flawed, immature, and tantamount to Trollism.

Not all Countries EMS systems live in such fear of litigation, that their training and education are restricted to the degree it is in the US. Why you have such a hard on about it is anybody's guess. Personally, I would be far more frightened when a 21 year old child, with no experience of driving under emergency conditions, gets a flap on for their first ever call, than I would with someone who had met the GOVERNMENT REQUIRED, minimal competencies in emergency vehicle operations - and all that entails.

I see the benefit I just do not think the benefit out weighs the risk. Again L&S are way over used. If used less often people would pay more attn when they were actually needed which is probably less than 10% of all calls.

[nremtp]

One does wonder whether people were born brain damaged or dropped on their heads at birth.

We do not create fake emergencies, where did you get this bull*hit idea from? I think you are just sh*t stirring and you need to go back to your cookbook protocol monkey! See we can make assumptions on this side of the pond based on rumour and hear say as well. Don't you need to phone a doctor for permission to perform all your procedures? That's certainly how it seems on the Documentaries I see for example: "This is Medic xyz, we need permission to proceed with the ALS protocol for a cardiac arrest" oh my! How behind the times are you lot? Seems it's easy to make assumptions and generalisations without knowing the full truth isn't it.

Would you honestly have a situation with someone performing something with a potentially fatal outcome without first practising it supervised? I don't need an answer, you are from the country of 12 week Paramedic courses where you see one do one teach one.

Where I come from, we are educated and then supervised and assessed before being let loose on the public in ALL procedures and this includes emergency driving.

Let me repeat it for the idiots who didn't get it the first time. WE DO NOT RUN FAKE EMERGENCIES! We drive under emergency conditions with an instructor sitting right next to us supervising for 3 WEEKS before we are signed off as competent.

To quote zippy, you don't know what you don't know. Without appropriate EVOC training and supervision you simply don't know what you don't know concerning the subject.

Would you also apply your same ridiculous argument to the police? The police pursuit drivers undergo months of supervised practice before being allowed to pursue criminals on blue lights at high speed. Should we also stop them doing this training? Or should we (as we do) regulate the training? Such as no high speeds in school zones or during times when children will be on the streets (ACPO regulate this already!)

Emergency driving is heavily regulated in my country in order to reduce road deaths and our emergency vehicle crash occurences are significantly lower as our drivers are much higher trained than in the USA.

[theotherphil]

Man, what a load of crap being posted in this thread

I'm a Paramedic in the UK and has already been posted previously, we have to undertake a minimum of 3 weeks advanced driving and this includes driving on L&S through built up areas. The vehicles are CLEARLY marked as TRAINING vehicles so the public are all too aware of it's purpose.

Included in those 3 weeks is advanced car/ ambulance control on a skid pan learning how to control FWD, RWD and AWD vehicles in slippery conditions. As a point to note, the driving part of the training is usually done before the clinical as more people FAIL this 3 week driving course. A large percentage of staff are binned (8 out of 20 on my course) as they are deemed not suitable for various reasons.

As a Rapid Response Paramedic, I did a further 2 weeks advanced driving 1:1 with a Police Traffic Officer in a high power Volvo T5. Over here, we can quite legally claim speed exemptions with no maximum as long as it's safe to do so. On this course, we regularly hit speeds of 120mph + down country lanes/ motorways. The emphasis is on safety and hazard perception far into the distance.

The training we have is second to none and as such, our accident rate is extremely low. In the past 5 years, I have responded L&S to 10-14 jobs per 12 hour shift (that's over 10,000 responses) and have never had an accident. On quite a few of these, speeds in excess of 100mph were used.

In doing this training, we a protecting the public by having the most highly trained drivers in control of emergency vehicles. In comparison to actual number of calls, our accident rate is extremely low....in London alone, the Ambulance Service respond to 4,500 emergency calls per day with pretty much zero incidents. I think that speaks volumes for our training.

[spenac]

Man, what a load of crap being posted in this thread

I'm a Paramedic in the UK and has already been posted previously, we have to undertake a minimum of 3 weeks advanced driving and this includes driving on L&S through built up areas. The vehicles are CLEARLY marked as TRAINING vehicles so the public are all too aware of it's purpose.

Included in those 3 weeks is advanced car/ ambulance control on a skid pan learning how to control FWD, RWD and AWD vehicles in slippery conditions. As a point to note, the driving part of the training is usually done before the clinical as more people FAIL this 3 week driving course. A large percentage of staff are binned (8 out of 20 on my course) as they are deemed not suitable for various reasons.

As a Rapid Response Paramedic, I did a further 2 weeks advanced driving 1:1 with a Police Traffic Officer in a high power Volvo T5. Over here, we can quite legally claim speed exemptions with no maximum as long as it's safe to do so. On this course, we regularly hit speeds of 120mph + down country lanes/ motorways. The emphasis is on safety and hazard perception far into the distance.

The training we have is second to none and as such, our accident rate is extremely low. In the past 5 years, I have responded L&S to 10-14 jobs per 12 hour shift (that's over 10,000 responses) and have never had an accident. On quite a few of these, speeds in excess of 100mph were used.

In doing this training, we a protecting the public by having the most highly trained drivers in control of emergency vehicles. In comparison to actual number of calls, our accident rate is extremely low....in London alone, the Ambulance Service respond to 4,500 emergency calls per day with pretty much zero incidents. I think that speaks volumes for our training.

I see your points but disagree. Sorry. I think you dull the publics perception of emergency by over playing in public. I could be wrong but just disagree based on my opinion.

[zippyRN]

Even my English friends are appalled.

They never suspected - how would they know?

They had no idea that a fire truck, ambulances, too?, may be speeding down a street with lights and sirens operating, taking right of way from drivers and pedestrians, going through red traffic signals, passing in opposing lanes, imposing noise pollution, on FAKE emergent runs.

Do any other countries allow such moronic nonsense?

so real as possible simulated training is moronic is it ? so it's moronic for give you supernumerary ride time with preceptor in the back as well ?

the main benefit of this training activity is that the plug can be pulled there and then by the supervising instructor with no disbenefit to service ...

perhaps it's Moronic for your first live emergency drive to be a simulation or tasked as an supernumerary resource, and with a qualified Emergency Driving Instructor in the passenger seat and 2 other students observing your performance for their own and your benefit.

and as an FYI UK emergency vehicles do not 'TAKE' right of way it is given by other traffic ,

if you'd done a little research you've also know that UK Emergency vhicles treat Red (permanent) traffic signals as 'give way' signs and many services have a policy that the stop line must be crossed at <10 mph or even that the vehicle must come to a stop before crossing the line.

Firefighters will practice driving with lights and sirens by doing it on public streets.

They are NOT en route to any fire or emergency.

Just joy rides in public.

funny definition of 'joy ride'

-planned training excercise

-OiC the vehicle is a driver trainer / driving instructor

- routes, safety camera activitations and any near miss or actual incident has to be logged with control and with the police. any actual incident (training or real) when warning devices are used and /or exemptions claimed will be fully investigated by the service and the Roads Policing Unit.

I would prefer no one drove lights and sirens. Is there any actuall proof that more lives are saved because of this dangerous action than lost in acidents caused by it?

depends if we are talking about whackers with little or no training or people with several weeks of drver training in addition to a full EU Driving licence for the class of vehicle ...

You're overcomplicating it. Keep your hands on the steering wheel and off the switches. The partner riding shotgun should be doing all that. Why would it take hundreds of simulated runs to learn that?

or you have properly specc'd vehicles with single button/ switch / slider emergency warning system controls and foot pedal/ horn ring siren tone change controls

I see your points but disagree. Sorry. I think you dull the publics perception of emergency by over playing in public. I could be wrong but just disagree based on my opinion.

3 to 5 days of the three week driving course undertaken by full time emergency services is emergency driving the first two weeks are aobut good basic driving and good 'davanced' driving ... the course spread far and wide my brother is a police officer on his police response course they touched both coasts ina day beginning from pretty near the middle of the country

i currently live approx 5 miles away from my local police force driver training and development centre ... on average 1 or 2 days a week ( but not every week) i see driver training cars on blues for perhaps an hour or so vs, the several hundred emergency responses a week from the local police station and the Roads Policing unit based there

[robert gift]

I used the term, FAKE.

Is it a REAL response to a fire or emergency?

No?

Then it is a FAKE.

I also used "Joy Ride".

You expose the public to NEEDLESS risks and annoyance.

You impose taking right of way from others. (obligating others to "give" you right of way)

You force others to stop and yield and move out of your way. (making others "volunteer" to give way)

You blare noise into homes and businesses.

As MedicRN stated, you may desensitize the public to sirens.

If there or here, it is still wrong.

Matters not if some unenlightened bureaucrats made it "legal".

My English acquaintances, who had no idea such is done, oppose the imposition.

Perhaps they will start an effort to get this "malpractice" stopped.

We do need to practice on closed courses to learn vehicle clearances and maneuvering, etc. (We use parking lots and cones.)

But emergent driving proficiency can all be gained driving normally and using just a little imagination and thought.

And now you also have videos from which to learn.

[scott33]

You see now you are just being antagonistic for the hell of it.

You have lost the argument, and embarrassed yourself. You are clearly trolling here and on YouTube. You have failed to formulate a credible argument for what you believe to be “malpractice”. You have failed to acknowledge that those foreign driving practices occur with full support of the law in other countries. You have failed to acknowledge the input of 3 English members here who have more experience of this issue that you or I. You have failed to enlist the support of your "English friends". You have failed to cite any references that suggest the US system of emergency driver training is better than the European model. You have admitted you are just a jolly volley, and to hearing voices in your head.

I get it - short yellow school bus

Jog on.

[Dustdevil]

You have failed to formulate a credible argument for what you believe to be “malpractice”.

Don't be silly, Scott. The proof burden swings both ways. You have failed to show that the risk-to-benefit ratio of this practice justifies its use. We can't even prove that the use of lights and sirens is justified in real emergencies. In fact, multiple studies contradict that belief. So how exactly do you intend to prove that it is justified in practice?

You have failed to acknowledge that those foreign driving practices occur with full support of the law in other countries.

The Holocaust occurred with full support of the law too. So what's your point?

You have failed to acknowledge the input of 3 English members here who have more experience of this issue that you or I.

You have failed to enlist the support of your "English friends".

The popularity of a belief does not validate it.

You have failed to cite any references that suggest the US system of emergency driver training is better than the European model.

He also never suggested that it was.

But I'd like for you to cite some credible references that this practice results in a significantly better outcome than the same amount of training done without faking emergencies. The burden of proof is not on us to disprove it. The burden of proof is on you to prove it.

[zippyRN]

I used the term, FAKE.

Is it a REAL response to a fire or emergency?

No?

Then it is a FAKE.

I hate to break it to you but UK emergency vehicles and warning devices legislation doesn't require an 'emergency' for a driver of certain classes of vehicle to permitted o claim exemptions and/ or use warning devices , only that the purpose the vehicle is being used for would be hindered by not using warning devices and/or claiming an exemption.

The Services, CPS and Courts accept that live training is an appropriate purpose.

if you have a collision while claiming exemptions whether training or real you will be prosecuted to the fullest extenent of the law and the accident investigation from a criminal point of view will be exemplary becasue the Specailst crash investigators from the the Raod policing Unit will investigate it in the fullest becasue they realise that their investigations are a significant part ofthe evidence base of what is and isn't acceptable behaviour when claiming exemptions and driving using warning devices.

I also used "Joy Ride".

which is patently untrue

You expose the public to NEEDLESS risks and annoyance.

sadly the services, CPS, courts and professional bodies feel otherwise

You impose taking right of way from others. (obligating others to "give" you right of way)

You force others to stop and yield and move out of your way. (making others "volunteer" to give way)

i'd go and read the relevant legislation or even the Uk Highway Code, the Uk does not have mandatory yield legislation, instead relying on intelligent use of Obstruction legislation

You blare noise into homes and businesses.

As MedicRN stated, you may desensitize the public to sirens.

rather less than every whackerin the township running lights and noise to fire house or scene for a 'cat up tree'

If there or here, it is still wrong.

Matters not if some unenlightened bureaucrats made it "legal".

My English acquaintances, who had no idea such is done, oppose the imposition.

Perhaps they will start an effort to get this "malpractice" stopped.

they will get laughed out the courtroom,

We do need to practice on closed courses to learn vehicle clearances and maneuvering, etc. (We use parking lots and cones.)

irrelevant to the discussions, yest we all spend part of our basic none-operational driver training on a car park with cones and that

But emergent driving proficiency can all be gained driving normally and using just a little imagination and thought.

can it ?

well in Whackersville where 16 hours training is considered excessive ...

And now you also have videos from which to learn.

irrelevant

[robert gift]

You have lost the argument, and embarrassed yourself. You are clearly trolling here and on YouTube. You have failed to formulate a credible argument for what you believe to be “malpractice”. You have failed to acknowledge that those foreign driving practices occur with full support of the law in other countries. You have failed to acknowledge the input of 3 English members here who have more experience of this issue that you or I. You have failed to enlist the support of your "English friends". You have failed to cite any references that suggest the US system of emergency driver training is better than the European model. You have admitted you are just a jolly volley, and to hearing voices in your head.

I get it - short yellow school bus

Jog on.

I always wondered why mine (bus) was so short!

My English friend agrees with every one of the items I listed.

Just because less-enlightened people agree with these public exercises does not make it right.

Less-enlightened people thought the earth was flat.

What does the public say?

References? We don' need no stinkin' references.

Try thinking about it. Have an original thought for perhaps the first time in your life.

Ask your citizens if they approve being subjected to these "joy rides."

I know two who don't approve, and neither do I.

I am an emergency vehicle driver instructor.

I know all of these concepts and maneuvers can be accomplished without subjecting the public to FAKE runs.