In England They Do Fake Emergent Driving In Public!

[robert gift]

it's some what irrelevant

Somewhat?

My whole post is entirely irrelevant.

'right of way' is a set of rules for agreeing who goes first , not an absolute rigid code

Uk emergency vehicles 'request' the right of way by use of warning devices and their positioning

what happened to the rule of 'space and time to stop'

for the umpteenth time the use of warning devices is a request for other road users to allow the emergency vehicle through ...

but not in the UK unless they willfully obstruct a specificed Emergency worker or Police Constable in the execution of their duty ...

Understood.

But people, especially polite and genteel English, feel obligated. Just as I would.

I bet few really know it is but a "request".

Police have followed ambulances and have cited drivers for not yielding.

I try to position the vehicle so lights are most easily seen.

11 or 12 regional Ambulance services undertaking 2000 -4500 emergency and urgent details a day - a significant proportion of which will attract at least one if not more emergent responses ( one scene = one detail whether it;s a cut finger or 60 casualty Mass casualty incident with 20 front line vehicles, control and equipment tenders etc etc)

30 odd regional fire and rescue services, 30 odd regional police services plus coastguard, search and rescue, national blood service , various military vehicles ...

plus the private and voluntary sector in EMS and Fire 100 k is a ball park figure, possibly a little optimistic.

Oh.

Thank you.

[scott33]

But people, especially polite and genteel English, feel obligated.

So clearly you have never visited, nor met anyone from England, but no doubt have a shitload of DVDs starring Hugh Grant

Somewhat?

My whole post is entirely irrelevant.

Thank you. The most sensible and accurate thing you have stated yet.

[robert gift]

So clearly you have never visited, nor met anyone from England, but no doubt have a shitload of DVDs starring Hugh Grant

Thank you. The most sensible and accurate thing you have stated yet.

Funny.

I have been to England twice.

Even climbed onto the roof of the Bond Street carillon.

As a former professional firefighter and fire inspector, exited my hotel room descending from the 6th floor checking out a fire stairway and exited outside.

There was no sign indicating that opening that door would summon the fire brigade.

Brilliant.

England is full of wonderful, polite people.

[crotchitymedic1986]

The biggest danger from running FAKE emergency runs is desensitizing the public to the siren. They hear it so often, it blends into ambient sound and they will soon ignore the BRT on their bumper who is actually trying to get somewhere in a hurry.

People were desensitized to sirens a long time ago. I think this is a great idea if done correctly. There is only so much you can learn on a cone course. I would start in the rural environment, and then move them more and more urban, but I wouldnt let the practice during hours that kids would be out and about

[theotherphil]

Are you sure the claim of over 100,000 emergent responses in the UK daily is correct?

Sorry, a rogue 0! I meant approx 10,000 Emergency responses by just the Ambulance Services daily.

[scott33]

I think this is a great idea if done correctly. There is only so much you can learn on a cone course. I would start in the rural environment, and then move them more and more urban, but I wouldnt let the practice during hours that kids would be out and about

Fair points, and I agree with a gradual exposure to this type of driving which should start in the classrom, then the parking lot / closed track, rural or remote areas, then congested areas.

Remember though, on this side of the pond, on call number one when "your up", there will be kids around, and surely with zero previous exposure to emergency driving, the higher risks are there. Personally, I believe even with the sucky way it is done in the US, I think it is only common sense to have their first few hot responses, to those calls with no apparent life threats - Alpha, and Bravo type calls, for those who use AMPDS (US).

But technically, there is nothing to stop the situation where the first time a noob driver EVER gets behinds the wheel of an ambulance, using audible and visual warning devices, diving in excess of the posted speed limit, and requesting the right of way through dense traffic - is for a child arrest.

I find that very unnerving.

[Richard B the EMT]

Unless the 9-1-1 E (enhanced 911) system flags a phone number as a frequent caller, there are people who know our "Key" words, like "unconscious", "heart attack", or "somebody shot" followed by hanging up the phone, that no follow up questions can be asked, and usually ends up with an ambulance being dispatched at highest priority levels of response.

The humorous side has the often told tale of an ambulance crew being met at curbside by a person standing there with packed bags, yelling at them, "Can't you idiots see I'm having a cardiac arrest, here?"

I mention I learned to drive, before I even knew what an EMT was, by being in a car with a "Student Driver" sign attached, let loose on the neighborhood with a "qualified instructor" sitting next to me, with dual sided brake and gas pedals. I understand some driving schools even have steering wheels on both sides, too.

Yes, there comes a time the Noob is going to have to drive their first call at emergent status, so there is no definitive way of getting them the experience of "actual road conditions". As long as there exists Emergency Vehicle Operations Courses (EVOC), at least the agencies have a way of preparing the Noob for what is to come.

(Before someone asks, a 9-1-1-E system has an almost failsafe device that locks in the caller's phone number, and has the address of the telephone number on a display screen, or the Public Safety Answering Point's computer screen. If someone calls, gives skimpy information, and hangs up, at least the responding LEO, FD, and EMS teams have an address to go to, even if it is that of the caller, and possibly not the address where the help is needed. I say "almost" as calls from cell phones rarely are at their owners home address, but with the advent of Global Positioning Systems being a regular feature of newer cell phones, the authorities can usually find where the phone is, to send help to the area.)

[Dustdevil]

I think this is a great idea if done correctly.

The "correct" way to do it would be not to do it at all. The math speaks for itself. There are plenty enough REAL emergency runs to be made that one need not FAKE them just for the opportunity to practise emergent driving techniques. This isn't rural Hooterville, where they have fifty vollies fighting over who gets to drive on the three runs they make a week. It's pointless and totally unjustifiable.

...I wouldnt let the practice during hours that kids would be out and about.

Right... because playing with the siren when there is no emergency is a much better idea at night, when people are trying to sleep.

This whole proposition just gets stupider by the minute.

[zippyRN]

people keep puitting great stock by EVOC

how long a course ?

how many hours on the road?

how much time spent getting people used to the dimensions of the vehicle etc?

how much time spent making sure people can drive these vehicles according to The System Of Car Control before being let loose in even none emergency conditions?

how long in as controlled as can be emergency conditions ? ( which in the UK is achieved by the accepted and acceptable use of warning devices and the claiming of exemptions for training purposes as recognised by the law)

if nothing this thread has demonstrated how much someone don't know they don't know.

The "correct" way to do it would be not to do it at all. The math speaks for itself. There are plenty enough REAL emergency runs to be made that one need not FAKE them just for the opportunity to practise emergent driving techniques. This isn't rural Hooterville, where they have fifty vollies fighting over who gets to drive on the three runs they make a week. It's pointless and totally unjustifiable.

all of which a strictly against the clock, the 8 min cat A response standard and 14/19 minute hot send other Emergency response standard is from when the exchenge provider connects the call to Comms, not from dispatch, not from pressing 'red mobile' on the terriblefix ...

the main advantage of live emergency driver training is that it can be stopped at any time by the instructor , the driving student or other students for safety reasons ( using dgood CRM techniques), there is 'no against the clock 'pressure

[Dustdevil]

Okay, if this is such a valid educational theory, let's just go ahead and carry it over to the rest of our duties.

Let's just start intubating people without medical indications, just so the first time we do it on an actual emergency patient, we have plenty of "real" experience behind us.

Wait, why waste time with intubation on those people? Go big or go home! Cricothyrotomies for everyone!

Chest tubes on everyone. After all, you wouldn't want your first one to be on someone who actually needed it, would you?

Are those suggestions absurd? They are exactly the same suggestion as FAKING emergencies to practise emergent driving in public. It's no better than the Nazis performing medical experiments on the Jews. It is unethical and totally unjustifiable.

So show me the math. How many accidents have resulted from these dry runs? How many injuries? And have the accident rates shown any significant decrease since the implementation of this programme that can be PROVEN to be the result of the programme?